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  • jrc123
    jrc123 Posts: 246 Forumite
    First Anniversary Name Dropper First Post Combo Breaker
    morning all

    So i had a response from the council this morning saying the road is a private road owned by National Rail.

    This would mean it would come under byelaws?
    Is this a good thing if it goes to court?

    thanks
  • neilmcl
    neilmcl Posts: 19,460 Forumite
    First Anniversary Name Dropper First Post
    jrc123 wrote: »
    morning all

    So i had a response from the council this morning saying the road is a private road owned by National Rail.

    This would mean it would come under byelaws?
    Is this a good thing if it goes to court?

    thanks
    Why are you still asking, are you not reading the replies you're getting? You've had all the necessary advice over the last 4 pages.
  • jrc123
    jrc123 Posts: 246 Forumite
    First Anniversary Name Dropper First Post Combo Breaker
    apologies it is only an update as i have found out the road is a private road.
    and wondered if that means anything different
  • Redx
    Redx Posts: 38,084 Forumite
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    it means that what people like myself and the other "regulars" said was and is correct and so our advice was 100% correct all along

    bylaws prevail, which only the TOC can push forward and expect to win (which they wont) within 6 months and the PCM enforcement action is a sideshow with no legs

    have you found out which TOC has the franchise for the stations etc on the line adjacent to and near to this location ? if not , find out
  • jrc123
    jrc123 Posts: 246 Forumite
    First Anniversary Name Dropper First Post Combo Breaker
    Hi Redx,

    hope you're good!
    Yes that the TOC is Network Rail.
    I had this email reply from the local council:

    Hi Jordan

    I have contacted our Parking Section and have been advised that the road is owned by Network Rail.
    However, whilst they know byelaws exist they are unsure as to exactly what they are.

    Kind regards
    J
    Highway Information Officer

    So basically the fine has to come from the TOC not PCM?
    PCM cant act on/have a contract from TOC to do the dirty work?

    thanks
    Jordan
  • Redx
    Redx Posts: 38,084 Forumite
    First Anniversary Name Dropper First Post Photogenic
    edited 31 May 2017 at 1:03PM
    Network Rail is not a TOC

    The TOC lease the franchise so its the TOC (the franchisee) I asked about , not the actual owner

    think of it as being "rented" by Network Rail (the owner) to the TOC and they sub contracted PCM to let them know of any "parking issues" (but PCM are trying to run it like a private car park)

    its important that you READ what people tell you and digest it

    even the email you got said OWNER and not "franchisee"

    so again, who is the TOC (franchisee) for that area and stations ?
  • Just to reiterate what everyone else said:


    1. Ignore prosaver, he/she doesn't know what he/she is talking about. Sorry prosaver, not meaning to offend, but seriously your advice is so wrong I am wanting to cry and laugh at the same time. First, the charge is for the TOC to levy, not a PPC, second the correct process is magistrates breach of byelaw proceedings not civil breach of contract proceedings and third the OP quite clearly did not "park" and has no liability whatsoever to pay the charge.


    2. You defend on the basis of the byelaws and that this is not a claim to be brought by the PPC but by the TOC and the correct procedure is for such proceedings to be pursued in the magistrates court, not the county court.


    3. I would add to any defence that, in any event, no contract with the PPC can have been formed by you as driver. for there to be a contract there must be an offer, acceptance and consideration. The sign is what the PPC asserts is the "offer". Setting aside any arguments over whether the wording and positioning of the sign made it capable of making any offer, you say that you read the "offer" and decided not to accept it, so you got back into your car (engine still running and door left open) and drove away. You didn't "accept" the "offer" because you chose not to park and left. Rather disingenuously of the PPC there are photos of you stopping and getting out of your car and walking towards the sign, but none of you reading the sign and then returning to the car and driving away - all within a matter of seconds. If this goes ahead, insist on the parking operative giving evidence and attending court because this is a crucial issue and you want to cross examine him.


    4. The Claimant will rely on the sign making an offer of parking. You didn't "park" in the ordinary meaning of that word. You saw a sign, so you stopped and got out to read it, leaving your door open and your engine running. You then returned to the car and drove away, all in a space of about 30 seconds. There was a recent case where the DJ defined "parking" and said that it did not including stopping temporarily - eg to unload. Stopping for a matter of seconds, for the purpose of reading signage (particularly where it is claimed such signage makes an offer to park) is clearly not "parking". The case is Jopson v Home Guard. We debated the issue of what constitutes "parking" on this thread which links to case law, dictionary definitions and other relevant threads: http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=72444632#post72444632


    This is completely absurd and if you make a bit of a fuss now I'd expect them to slink away and leave you alone (after the usual stupid chasing letters).


    If the matter proceeds, you must ask them to produce any other photographs that their operative took after these 3 that you have shown.
    If they say there aren't any, then say that you would like the name and address of the parking operative because he is an important witness and you would like to speak to him. The law about witnesses is that "there is no property in a witness" - this means that nobody "owns" what a witness saw - so a Defendant is equally entitled to speak to a witness employed by the Claimant as the Claimant is. They will of course say that they will not give out his details - you then say that you will expect them to produce a statement from him and to make him available for cross examination, should they proceed against you. If they then don't, you invite an adverse inference and you make a fuss that in spite of there being no property in a witness, they refused you access to him as the most important witness in the case.
    Although a practising Solicitor, my posts here are NOT legal advice, but are personal opinion based on limited facts provided anonymously by forum users. I accept no liability for the accuracy of any such posts and users are advised that, if they wish to obtain formal legal advice specific to their case, they must seek instruct and pay a solicitor.
  • jrc123
    jrc123 Posts: 246 Forumite
    First Anniversary Name Dropper First Post Combo Breaker
    Hi Redx

    sorry i am very new to this all and trying to digest it all.

    The station is Leytonstone High Road station which is part of the London Overground network which is run by TFL. I am awaiting confirmation of this.

    Some signs found do say Network Rail on them.

    does that help?
  • jrc123
    jrc123 Posts: 246 Forumite
    First Anniversary Name Dropper First Post Combo Breaker
    LOADSOFCHILDREN123

    thanks for the reply.

    1 - Noted will do
    2 - Noted on this
    3 - Precisely correct i read it didnt accept and left the road
    4 - i shall read this

    to add the only other images on the website are of me in the car driving off which they cant use as the car is moving with myself driving it lol
  • jrc123
    jrc123 Posts: 246 Forumite
    First Anniversary Name Dropper First Post Combo Breaker
    LOADSOFCHILDREN123
    also if i need to make a defense would i use similar points used on that link you posted?
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