VCS/BW Legal - writing defence

Well I said I would write up an account of what happened in court… hopefully it will help others in my position.

It is very long and probably irrelevant( a bit like my WS as you’ll see ) but I've tried to group it into what happened, how I felt leading up to the hearing and then what happened at the hearing. I would suggest reading with a glass of red of an evening.


First and foremost I cannot thank enough all the people that have helped me on and off the forum… your help has truly been invaluable and without it I would have paid up a long time ago. Special thanks to Ladsofchildren123 for the help with my WS and SA… you have been absolutely amazing. Also to Parking Prankster for his fabulous blog and case page… extracts from which I was armed with on the day.

The second thing I’d say to anyone going to court… don't leave everything to the last minute!! Monday night was probably the most frantic night of my life. I used a whole pack of A4 paper printing off three copies of everything… putting each bundle together so if you are facing court get things ready as early as you can… it's the last thing you need when you are stressed the night before. As it turns out I didn't need the copies… but you can't know that before the hearing so best to go prepared.

Before the hearing

So Tuesday morning my hearing was at 11am… I got to the Court about 10:15/10:20 and signed myself in at the desk. The Usher’s name was Peter and he was friendly..
I think I expected to be treated like a criminal but he didn't do that. I asked if anyone had arrived for the other side and he said no. I positioned myself on the chair nearest to his desk so I would hear people’s names as they signed in but it didn't work for me… I couldn't quite hear.

I didn't find the waiting room very intimidating at all…it was like a hospital waiting room with a mixture of society in there. Some were dressed very smartly, some track suits so not so smart so I was glad I had worn trousers and a smart jacket.

I got up again and asked the Usher, Peter, if my Skeleton Argument had been received. He had the file on his desk so he checked and it was there. I sat back down again and went through some notes I had written… I was feeling nervous about raising the issue of Rights of Audience so was rereading my notes, what to say to bring it up, what to find out from their Rep when they showed and LoC123 was clarifying RoA for me in private messages on MSE so I was reading through them.

The worst bit was watching people walk in and eyeing them up to see if they’d be the one I was up against. Some Rep’s came past with files in their hands containing not very little and I was expecting it to be one of these.

I waited until 10:45 and then thought I’d better check again if their Rep had turned up. I wanted to use the BMPA Check The Rep service and so would need to be sending them a message. So I asked the Usher if anyone had arrived and he said yes and pointed to a lady near me… I must admit I hadn't really seen her sitting there. I asked the Usher if I was allowed to talk to her and he said yes.

I sat back down… checked the info I needed to find out and tried to work out if I had the courage to approach her. I just thought to myself… “so much work has been done on this case…. I really need to win this”, so I went over to her…. Introduced myself and asked for her name. It was a bit like getting blood out of a stone… I think she was suspicious of me and I could hardly hear her answers… I had to bend right down and stick my ear in front of her face to hear but I managed to establish her name was Angela Jackson from Elms Legal. ( I’m not 100% sure that is her name now but that's what I thought at the time). I thought “yes… Elms Legal” and remembered IamEmanresu’s comment on my thread that anything Elms Legal is third hand and might be in with a chance.

When she looked at me quizzically for asking the questions I just smiled and said… “I just wanted to know who I was up against” and shrugged it off. She asked me if there was anything I wanted to discuss before we went in and I politely said no that we could wait until we were in there.

I text BMPA Check The Rep service my case number, her name and firm Elms Legal. In hindsight I needed to check her qualifications. As it turned out Check The Rep didn't text me back until I was nearly home and had won and they advised me they had found two Angela Jacksons, both London based, but asked me if she had a practice certificate. Obviously I hadn't found this out so if you do use this service I’d say you need to be a bit more prepared to extract info out of the Rep. Had I done this the service may have been more use to me but I guess they were looking for a needle in a haystack!!

I would also say their Rep had one of those briefcases on wheels… I don't know whether this is used to try and intimidate me… it did a little… I thought she must be used to coming to Court which gave her an advantage and she also looked the part.

At the Hearing

Before long we were called in and, as I didn't know what to do, I followed the Rep’s lead. For instance, I didn't know if we had to wait to be told to sit down by the Judge so I only sat down after the Rep did just in case.

As others have said… it is just a room with a big table and a desk at one end, behind which sat Deputy District Judge Neil Fawcett. I sat on the table one side and “Angela” sat on the other side. There were two microphones on the table to record what we said.

Judge Fawcett began by explaining to me how these things normally work, I.e. Who goes first, what happened when's. Then the Judge stated what the claim was… I.e. Unpaid parking charge and talked about the particulars… more for the benefit of the recording I think rather than us.

Straight away he wasn't impressed the VCS/BW Legal’s Witness hadn’t turned up… Ian Callaghan. Of course this was no surprise to me that he hadn't turned up… they had told me he wasn't going to be there but I was surprised by Judge Fawcett’s objection to this… he really wasn't happy and I felt like this set the tone for the entire hearing. He mentioned that it disadvantaged their case..( I think the word he used was disadvantaged) and he made the point to me that this meant I didn't have a witness to question, whereas the Claimants Rep would have chance to question me.

I nervously interjected here as I wanted to raise Rights of Audience and I knew I had to get in there before the Rep started summarising her case. I said that it had been brought to my attention that parking charge companies had been sending people to court who did not have Rights of Audience, who were nothing to do with the case. He straight away dismissed this and said he was satisfied she did have and that it is only an issue over £100. Their Rep then piped up that she does have Rights of Audience… did the Judge want to see the papers… she motioned towards her bag… he said no. She then swore that she does have RoA. I just left it.

Then the Judge said that this case hung on whether there was a breach of contract. He said contracts are only made with people, not with vehicles.

The Judge mentioned briefly my WS which he said was disproportionate and largely irrelevant and shot down the byelaws argument… which was what we thought preparing it was my strongest argument. Cue a bit more nervousness from me.

Judge handed over to their Rep to summarise her case. She did this quickly, they weren't using POFA etc. I felt like she fumbled a little bit… like she didn't have a full grasp of the case… but maybe it's just her style of speaking. She didn't come across as very confident to me anyway. She referred the Judge to the MCOL Claim Form and the signage pics in the Claimant’s WS. There was a a bit of too-ing and fro-ing between the form and the pictures while the Judge tried to get his head around the picture and what they signs said. I think the Judge was trying to establish the contract.

She also agreed with the Judge that my WS was unfocused and that it was private land and byelaws didn't apply.

She said things I wanted to object to but I kept quiet and thought I would get my chance to put them straight… I made notes of the things she said which I wanted to challenge. As it turns out I didn't get chance to challenge them but I didn't know that at the time. Maybe someone with more experience can say whether I should have challenged them at the time… “shouting objection” 😂 or something similar but I thought the courteous thing would be to let her finish.

Then the Judge got stuck into trying to understand their charges… where the extra £70 came from. Again lots of too-ing and fro-ing between the MCOL claim form and the pics of the signs where it mentioned “additional costs and interest”. The Judge didn't seem very happy with it but the Rep bumbled her way through it.

Then she was given the opportunity to question me about my WS and the Judge asked her if she took it all at fact. She kept trying to bring in Legal arguments but the Judge wasn't interested… he just wanted to know if she accepted the WS as fact and she had to concede in the end that she did.

She wanted clarification on how many people drove the car at the time… I referred her to my WS and both her and the Judge wrote down there was two drivers. I was asked who the second driver was and had to state my husband. She asked me whether I had asked my husband if he was driving and had we discussed who was driving. I said yes… thinking to myself “this has taken over my whole life of course we’ve talked about it you idiot”.

She started talking about the law of probabilities and how it was probable that I was driving, that they could assume I was.

The Judge mentioned something about European Law. But he said that was a speeding ticket… I'm sure he said so that was a criminal case.

She then mentioned Beavis… felt like she was sucking up to the Judge… she said how she was sure he was familiar with the case.

The Judge didn't really make any comment.

I think the Judge was pretty astounded that this claim had gone this far. The Claimant said I’d been given amble opportunity to name the driver. I am sure the Judge mentioned how I am not required to name the driver. I said the Claim had gone this far because the Claimant hadn't provided me with the information I needed to establish the driver and how all I had received apart from the debt letters was the court form and the WS. The Rep for the Claimant then made the lame excuse that it was all on the MCOL claim form and because it's online they've only got a certain number of characters blah blah.

Obviously their Witness wasn't there so I couldn't ask him any questions and we couldn't verify whether his WS was factual (which of course I knew it wasn't).

Then before I knew it the Judge said the Claimant was dismissed and it was all down to the fact they couldn't prove who the driver was.

I asked if I could claim costs. He had my cost schedule in front of him. He wasn't satisfied that the Claimant had acted unreasonably and I politely disagreed and mentioned all the work that had gone into this… I wish I'd had more to say about why it was unreasonable but he’d dismissed it so quick I wasn't prepared. He asked the Rep if she wanted to say anything and she said that I had acted unreasonably by not naming the driver.

He said he could award me mileage and parking for the day. I felt like he wanted to give me more… he even got his law book type thing out to check but after a few minutes he closed it and said he couldn't do anything further.

Then we packed up our things and left.

I couldn't believe it. It probably lasted 40 minutes in total and I hardly said anything at all which I was actually disappointed in. It wasn't nearly as bad as I felt and once we were in front of the Judge I felt all fired up and ready to go.

I must say the Judge dealt with me very fairly and kindly in terms of how he spoke to me and explained things. I didn't find him intimidating at all and I think that helped me calm down a bit.

I’ve tried to remember as much as I can from the hearing and write it all down just in case it can help someone else in any way at all. The order of things being said might be slightly out but that was the general gist. It really felt like it was over so quick that I don't think I felt like I took much of it in.

Well that's it guys… happy to take any questions….

Thanks again. So relieved this is over. Like a giant weight being lifted off me!!

Thanks Umkomaas... you are right... LOC123 cannot be thanked enough.

Not considering a claim for breach of DPA at all... I never want to set foot in a court room again if I can help it and I want my life back!!

claretmad62 wrote: »

Yes great report back Madhatter....was a tad worried for you on Monday night. But you did it...so well done.

I was a tad worried to me too :rotfl::rotfl: but thank you. You did help calm me down a little bit. We were all in this together. The more wins the better :j