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Parking in Garage/McDonalds
RedPen50
Posts: 75 Forumite
Hi there, I have been looking at all the help on this site and its giving me hope for my case.
I wasn't in a car park, but a Macdonald's/garage at the bottom of Salterhebble Hill in Halifax. The way the traffic works is a little strange so I will try to describe it to you - you go into the shared entrance of either McDonald's or the garage. When you want to leave, from McDonalds, you have to drive around the back of the garage and drive up alongside the fence towards the exit - there is only this one from the garage. There are no parking bays, no payment meters, although now I realise that there are double yellow lines by the fence, which I saw for the first time on the notice in the pictures.
In Feb 2018 I had pulled into the McDonald's restaurant with my cousin (we had just had a hospital appt), and got some food and went around the back of the garage and pulled up side onto the fence to eat. For years, drivers had done this as there is limited parking at McDonald's, but as long as you kept to the left by the fence and didn't stay too long, nothing was said. There is still ample room for two more lines of traffic leaving the garage and so you are not blocking the exit. From August last year there have been extensive roadworks from the Calderdale Royal Hospital (top of Salterhebble Hill) with the whole area under severe lane restrictions. For the majority of the time I bypassed Salterhebble Hill, but, as I said, this was the first time I had gone to McDonalds, or driven around the garage and parked by the fence in nearly a year - another car even parked behind me. Some time later I was shocked to receive a parking charge letter through the post from the Hx Car Park Management Ltd, with video pictures of my vehicle 'parked' and it took me a few minutes to figure out that it was at the garage. I then did something which I now know I shouldn't have done. I called up the company and spoke to an operator, explaining that there had never been parking restrictions before - it was a garage, no bays or parking meters etc - and the op just kept telling me that the signs were there and I should have seen them. I also mentioned I was there for a few minutes whilst I ate my burger and then left. The op told me that they give 5 minutes grace to read the signs. I went back to the garage and found that there were indeed signs, fixed to the fence, not much bigger than A4 size. Nothing else, no warning signs at the entrance to the garage or McDonalds, only on the fence, where other advertising banners were shown. I realised that, as the fence was on the left, and the driver is sitting in the car, even if I had turned and seen the sign, the only text I could see was the 'No Stopping' text, everything else was too small. I also had a passenger sitting on the left, part blocking the sign. I have noted on one of the threads on here, that a judge on a case agreed that if a driver has to get out of the car to read the sign, this was contrary and enticing the driver to breach the conditions.
I wasn't sure whether to respond to the notice and sure enough received letters from Gladstones, 'inviting' me to pay off the fine. Using a template from a thread on here, I responded, pointing out all the issues above, and some others which I can't remember just now as I'm getting tired due to the late hour, and I was then told to complete a protocol, which I did. I received an email from Gladstones, just really stating everything that they had done previously.
In other words, she was just re-iterating what had been said previously. When I asked, via the protocol, for a copy of their contract, they replied that the sign was their contract. When I went onto their website, I struggled to find a copy of their contract.
A short while later I was passing the garage and noticed that all of the signs had been taken down from the fence. I was puzzled and then wondered if the company was changing the signs after receiving my response. It was around a week before I saw someone putting them back on the fence again. I did take before and after pictures, but to me they looked the same, so not sure what that was about.
I have now received a County Court Business Centre Claim Form. I have again used a thread on here to fill out the online AOS section and that's where I'm at.
I know this is a long winded first thread, but its the first time I've done anything like this and quite frankly getting very distressed over it all. I have taken some hope from the successes on here and hope someone can help. Do I have a case? Should I have just paid to begin with?
Many thanks for your advice/input.
I wasn't in a car park, but a Macdonald's/garage at the bottom of Salterhebble Hill in Halifax. The way the traffic works is a little strange so I will try to describe it to you - you go into the shared entrance of either McDonald's or the garage. When you want to leave, from McDonalds, you have to drive around the back of the garage and drive up alongside the fence towards the exit - there is only this one from the garage. There are no parking bays, no payment meters, although now I realise that there are double yellow lines by the fence, which I saw for the first time on the notice in the pictures.
In Feb 2018 I had pulled into the McDonald's restaurant with my cousin (we had just had a hospital appt), and got some food and went around the back of the garage and pulled up side onto the fence to eat. For years, drivers had done this as there is limited parking at McDonald's, but as long as you kept to the left by the fence and didn't stay too long, nothing was said. There is still ample room for two more lines of traffic leaving the garage and so you are not blocking the exit. From August last year there have been extensive roadworks from the Calderdale Royal Hospital (top of Salterhebble Hill) with the whole area under severe lane restrictions. For the majority of the time I bypassed Salterhebble Hill, but, as I said, this was the first time I had gone to McDonalds, or driven around the garage and parked by the fence in nearly a year - another car even parked behind me. Some time later I was shocked to receive a parking charge letter through the post from the Hx Car Park Management Ltd, with video pictures of my vehicle 'parked' and it took me a few minutes to figure out that it was at the garage. I then did something which I now know I shouldn't have done. I called up the company and spoke to an operator, explaining that there had never been parking restrictions before - it was a garage, no bays or parking meters etc - and the op just kept telling me that the signs were there and I should have seen them. I also mentioned I was there for a few minutes whilst I ate my burger and then left. The op told me that they give 5 minutes grace to read the signs. I went back to the garage and found that there were indeed signs, fixed to the fence, not much bigger than A4 size. Nothing else, no warning signs at the entrance to the garage or McDonalds, only on the fence, where other advertising banners were shown. I realised that, as the fence was on the left, and the driver is sitting in the car, even if I had turned and seen the sign, the only text I could see was the 'No Stopping' text, everything else was too small. I also had a passenger sitting on the left, part blocking the sign. I have noted on one of the threads on here, that a judge on a case agreed that if a driver has to get out of the car to read the sign, this was contrary and enticing the driver to breach the conditions.
I wasn't sure whether to respond to the notice and sure enough received letters from Gladstones, 'inviting' me to pay off the fine. Using a template from a thread on here, I responded, pointing out all the issues above, and some others which I can't remember just now as I'm getting tired due to the late hour, and I was then told to complete a protocol, which I did. I received an email from Gladstones, just really stating everything that they had done previously.
In other words, she was just re-iterating what had been said previously. When I asked, via the protocol, for a copy of their contract, they replied that the sign was their contract. When I went onto their website, I struggled to find a copy of their contract.
A short while later I was passing the garage and noticed that all of the signs had been taken down from the fence. I was puzzled and then wondered if the company was changing the signs after receiving my response. It was around a week before I saw someone putting them back on the fence again. I did take before and after pictures, but to me they looked the same, so not sure what that was about.
I have now received a County Court Business Centre Claim Form. I have again used a thread on here to fill out the online AOS section and that's where I'm at.
I know this is a long winded first thread, but its the first time I've done anything like this and quite frankly getting very distressed over it all. I have taken some hope from the successes on here and hope someone can help. Do I have a case? Should I have just paid to begin with?
Many thanks for your advice/input.
0
Comments
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OK, as expected really but in any case, if their signs at the DYL say 'no parking' then they offered no contract anyway!I was shocked to receive a parking charge letter through the post from the Hx Car Park Management Ltd,
No parking licence was offered, as it was prohibited, see what I mean?
Clearly they were just changing them due to the GDPR in May 2018. Nothing unusual.A short while later I was passing the garage and noticed that all of the signs had been taken down from the fence. I was puzzled and then wondered if the company was changing the signs after receiving my response. It was around a week before I saw someone putting them back on the fence again. I did take before and after pictures, but to me they looked the same, so not sure what that was about.
Good.I have now received a County Court Business Centre Claim Form. I have again used a thread on here to fill out the online AOS section and that's where I'm at.
Now you have time to read lots of HX Gladstones defence threads.
Search for those keywords on this forum (click: ADVANCED SEARCH, and then click to SHOW RESULTS AS POSTS, never 'threads').
And also search for defence prohibitive signs no stopping IPC CoP which should also find you some recent non-HX example defences, about similar claims other IPC firms.
Copy, plagiarise, adapt and show us your draft defence and we'll help you.PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
CLICK at the top of this/any page where it says:
Forum Home»Motoring»Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD0 -
Hi Coupon-Mad, that's fab, thanks I will do.
Do I need to do anything else other than send the AOS and then my defence online when I've prepared it? I have seen a couple of threads on here where they missed filling out certain forms and the courts acted against them anyway.
Many thanks0 -
What is the Date of Issue on your Claim Form?0
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The court will act against you if you ignore any deadlines they give you.
Read up on court proceedings in the newbies FAQ thread near the top of the forum
#2 there comprehensively covers this
Bookmark it and use it as your main reference till this is dealt with0 -
Hi Guys
The date of issue was 5th Sept and I received it in the post 6th Sept.
I will look at newbies thread too, thanks.
I have put together a very rough first draft of defence, if you could have a look and see what you think.
In response to the parking charge notice dated 1.2.18 from Hx Car Park Management Ltd (hereafter called ‘the company’) on the following grounds. I assert that I am not liable for the sum claimed, or any amount at all, for the following reasons:
Your notice refers to a "contravention" which is misleading as it implies it to have been issued by a statutory authority. The term "contravention" which is usable only in penalty charge notices issued by local authorities is neither correct nor appropriate terminology for a civil parking notice.
Having since re-visited the site I now understand why the signage was not clear to me at the time of my original visit:
There were no company signs relating to parking restrictions on entering the Macdonalds Restaurant entrance, nor when exiting Macdonalds and entering the garage space. Clear signage must be erected at each entrance, therefore this cannot be deemed to be a fair contract.
When trying to read the signs on the fence, it is impossible for the motorist to do so from a moving or stopped vehicle and given the chance to act accordingly. If a motorist does stop the vehicle and get out to read the sign, the ‘contravention’ has already been committed.
The BPA logo is not clearly displayed on the signage.
The company is using ANPR camera systems but this is not clearly viewed on the signage from the vehicle.
The company’s signage states "No Stopping At All, including picking up, dropping off, loading and unloading." These signs are seen to run the full length of the fence bordering the garage on exit. As this is the only exit for both the garage and Mcdonalds, where all vehicles exiting the garage must yield to traffic travelling in both directions from Huddersfield and Halifax, this would mean that all vehicles using this exit are in breach of contract between the company and the motorist. This would make the contract unenforcable.
Your ‘convention’ states "was parked in an area that should be kept clear at all times". As the garage exit is very wide, so to accommodate all sizes of vehicles, the vehicle in question can be seen parked on the left, leaving ample room for two columns of vehicles side by side to use the exit.
The signage at the site makes no offer therefore cannot form a contract. The largest font at this site states ‘NO STOPPING AT ALL’.
If these notices are attempting to make a contractual offer then, as they are forbidding, they do not fulfil the basic requirements of a contract, which is that each party to the contract must offer valuable consideration to the other party, on clear terms capable of acceptance. In this case, neither the company nor the landowner is offering anything to the motorists. The notices therefore cannot, reasonably, be construed as having created a contractual relationship between the company and the motorist.
The company failed to comply with the IPC code of practice by using predatory or misleading tactics to lure drivers into incurring parking charges. There is photographic evidence showing the vehicle was immediately photographed and the grace period was not observed. The IPC code of conduct states that a grace period must be allowed in order that a driver might spot the signage, approach it, read it, then decide whether to accept the terms or not. A reasonable grace period would be a minimum of 5 minutes. The photographic evidence shows a time lapse of four minutes before the vehicle exited the garage, which was within the grace period. It should be highlighted that this point is not present on the signage at the site. No contract can be in place until a reasonable period of time has elapsed, therefore the charge notice should not have been issued and the company can be assessed as acting unreasonably.
The company is merely an agent acting on behalf of the landowner and is not the lawful occupier of the land. It is questionable if they have the authority to issue charges on this land in their own name and that they have no rights to bring action regarding this claim. The company suffers no loss whatsoever as a result of a vehicle parking at the location in question.
The demand from the company of such a large sum is not an accurate reflection of any loss suffered so it is not a reasonable charge. The monetary claim is disproportionate, punitive and unjustifiable in total and is pursuant to section 4(1) of the Unfair Contract Terms Act 1977, "A person cannot by reference to any contract term be made to indemnify another person (whether a party to the contract or not) in respect of liability that may be incurred by the other for negligence or breach of contract, except in so far as the contract term satisfies the requirement of reasonableness." The company should provide a breakdown of how their demanded charge is calculated for consideration.
The company has cited ParkingEye v Beavis as a reason for payment but this case was based around penalty fines within a car park. The garage is not a car park but is private land and a place of business that is completely reliant on the consumerism of the motorist. As there are no parking machines with a stated price per hour, the charge cannot be correctly calculated.
In conclusion, the company's signage on this site is simply a device to entrap motorists into a situation whereby the company invoices the motorists for unwarranted and unjustified charges. Motorists cannot have contractual liability due to the terms and conditions being insufficiently brought to their attention.
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I think that's all the points I have but not sure if I've worded them correctly.
Many thanks for all your help x0 -
With a Claim Issue Date of 5th September, and having done the AoS in a timely manner, you have until 4pm on Monday 8th October 2018 to file your Defence.The date of issue was 5th Sept and I received it in the post 6th Sept.
That's over three weeks away. Plenty of time to hone the Defence to perfection.
When you are happy with the content, your Defence should be filed via email as described here:
1) Print your Defence.
2) Sign it and date it.
3) Scan the signed document back in and save it as a pdf.
4) Send that pdf as an email attachment to CCBCAQ@Justice.gov.uk
5) Just put the claim number and the word Defence in the email title, and in the body of the email something like 'Please find my Defence attached'.
6) Log into MCOL after a few days to see if the Claim is marked "defended". If not chase the CCBC until it is.
7) Wait for the Directions Questionnaire and come back here.0 -
A defence is from 'the Defendant' to 'the Court' does not talk about 'you/your' or 'I/my/me':Your notice refers to a "contravention" which is misleading as it implies it to have been issued by a statutory authority. The term "contravention" which is usable only in penalty charge notices issued by local authorities is neither correct nor appropriate terminology for a civil parking notice.
Having since re-visited the site I now understand why the signage was not clear to me at the time of my original visit:
Please show us a new draft once you've spent this weekend reading the ones I told you to search for and read. And once you have read the NEWBIES thread post #2 (maybe re-reading it) to learn what to do and by when, and how to word and set out a defence.
None of our example defences here look like that draft, sorry! You've written what looks more like an appeal.PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
CLICK at the top of this/any page where it says:
Forum Home»Motoring»Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD0 -
That's good to know - at least I know I have time.
I will go back to the drawing board and do some more in depth research - I rushed it a bit but now I know I have a bit more time I will be more careful.
Many thanks.0 -
Hi Guys, I have been trying to post my defence on this thread but I keep getting the error message ' unable to post please try again'. I am not sure why, I haven't copied or pasted in links etc, I have typed up everything and just copied and pasted the text. Anyone have any suggestions?
Many thanks0 -
https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5706338
HTH - don't keep trying or your IP will get blocked by the forum.PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
CLICK at the top of this/any page where it says:
Forum Home»Motoring»Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD0
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