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APCOA Parking Charge Notice - Swindon Train Station, PCN Received - What are the nex
billythefish1
Posts: 18 Forumite
Dear Valued Members,
I received in the post today two PCN from Apcoa for not paying for parking at Swindon Train Station. A copy of one of the Notice Letters I have attached. I've read a number of threads on here and Money Saving Expert and I understand that there is a good chance I can successfully appeal both notices by following correct procedures. The problem is that there seems to be a lot of different advice and standard letters to use and I am not sure how/what is the most up to date format/content to use.
Also, to appeal based on the Railway Land argument do I have to confirm first whether the car park at Swindon Train Station is railway land or is all carparks railway land? Anyway; on the basis that it is, here's the first draft of my letter to appeal to Apcoa/GWR.
Is some of this information worth including or removing? From memory the signs in Swindon at the parking pay stations are pretty clear. It seems from all the threads that APCOA tend to reject any appeal letters anyway.
Dear APCOA Parking (UK) Ltd
Re PCN number: xxxx, Vehicle Registration No. xxxxxx
I am the keeper of the vehicle and am aware of your alleged 'parking charge' and I challenge this PCN as the keeper of the vehicle.
I believe that your signs fail the test of 'large lettering' and prominence, as established in ParkingEye Ltd v Beavis. The driver did not see your unremarkable and obscure signs, are in very small print and the terms are not readable to drivers.
Please provide photos of the signs that you say were on site, which you contend formed a contract with the driver.
Please provide all photographs taken of this vehicle and provide proof that the timing of any camera or timer used was synchronised with all other cameras and/or systems & machines.
Do not send debt collector letters and do not add any costs, which would be a thinly-veiled attempt at 'double recovery'. I will not respond to debt collectors and to involve a third party would be a failure to mitigate your costs as well as deliberate and knowing misuse of my data.
Since byelaws apply to railway land, the land is not relevant land within the meaning of PoFA and so is specifically excluded from 'keeper liability' under Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012. As I am the registered keeper I am not legally liable as this Act does not apply on this land. Please provide evidence including documentary proof from the Rail authorities that this land is not already covered by bylaws.
There will be no admissions as to who was driving and no assumptions can be drawn. You must either rely on the POFA 2012 and offer me a POPLA code, or cancel the charge.
Should you obtain the registered keeper's data from the DVLA without reasonable cause, please take this as formal notice that I reserve the right to sue your company and the landowner/principal, for a sum not less than £250 for any Data Protection Act breach. Your aggressive business practice and unwarranted threat of court for the ordinary matter of a driver using my car without causing any obstruction nor offence, has caused significant distress to me.
I do not give you consent to process data relating to me or this vehicle. I deny liability for any sum at all and you must consider this letter a Section 10 Notice under the DPA. You are required to respond within 21 days. I have kept proof of submission of this appeal and look forward to your reply.
Yours faithfully,
I received in the post today two PCN from Apcoa for not paying for parking at Swindon Train Station. A copy of one of the Notice Letters I have attached. I've read a number of threads on here and Money Saving Expert and I understand that there is a good chance I can successfully appeal both notices by following correct procedures. The problem is that there seems to be a lot of different advice and standard letters to use and I am not sure how/what is the most up to date format/content to use.
Also, to appeal based on the Railway Land argument do I have to confirm first whether the car park at Swindon Train Station is railway land or is all carparks railway land? Anyway; on the basis that it is, here's the first draft of my letter to appeal to Apcoa/GWR.
Is some of this information worth including or removing? From memory the signs in Swindon at the parking pay stations are pretty clear. It seems from all the threads that APCOA tend to reject any appeal letters anyway.
Dear APCOA Parking (UK) Ltd
Re PCN number: xxxx, Vehicle Registration No. xxxxxx
I am the keeper of the vehicle and am aware of your alleged 'parking charge' and I challenge this PCN as the keeper of the vehicle.
I believe that your signs fail the test of 'large lettering' and prominence, as established in ParkingEye Ltd v Beavis. The driver did not see your unremarkable and obscure signs, are in very small print and the terms are not readable to drivers.
Please provide photos of the signs that you say were on site, which you contend formed a contract with the driver.
Please provide all photographs taken of this vehicle and provide proof that the timing of any camera or timer used was synchronised with all other cameras and/or systems & machines.
Do not send debt collector letters and do not add any costs, which would be a thinly-veiled attempt at 'double recovery'. I will not respond to debt collectors and to involve a third party would be a failure to mitigate your costs as well as deliberate and knowing misuse of my data.
Since byelaws apply to railway land, the land is not relevant land within the meaning of PoFA and so is specifically excluded from 'keeper liability' under Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012. As I am the registered keeper I am not legally liable as this Act does not apply on this land. Please provide evidence including documentary proof from the Rail authorities that this land is not already covered by bylaws.
There will be no admissions as to who was driving and no assumptions can be drawn. You must either rely on the POFA 2012 and offer me a POPLA code, or cancel the charge.
Should you obtain the registered keeper's data from the DVLA without reasonable cause, please take this as formal notice that I reserve the right to sue your company and the landowner/principal, for a sum not less than £250 for any Data Protection Act breach. Your aggressive business practice and unwarranted threat of court for the ordinary matter of a driver using my car without causing any obstruction nor offence, has caused significant distress to me.
I do not give you consent to process data relating to me or this vehicle. I deny liability for any sum at all and you must consider this letter a Section 10 Notice under the DPA. You are required to respond within 21 days. I have kept proof of submission of this appeal and look forward to your reply.
Yours faithfully,
0
Comments
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Hi. I'm not one of the regulars here (yet) but I think your draft letter is for an appeal for a PPC that's an IPC member. As far as I'm aware APCOA are a memeber of the BPA so I think you need to use the format of the appeal letter in blue text below the IPC letter. I'm sure if I'm wrong then someone will correct me, but I hope not as that's the one I used for my recent APCOA appeal letter sent on March 24th. A couple of days ago I received the auto reminder saying they haven't received an appeal and I've misssed the 14 days reduced charge period blah blah blah.0
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Whilst you have not used the standard BPA appeal template from the NEWBIES, as a first stage appeal I think it perfectly OK.
It mentions byelaws and you haven't revealed the driver's identity, which is good. Well done for that. The only thing I would add is to say that you a require PoPLA code if it is rejected. This isn't actually required but it will make things easier in the long run, and nobody can wriggle out by saying it wasn't a valid appeal because the word appeal was omitted.
Separate appeals for each PCN. It is up to the scammers to prove that byelaws do not apply, but there is time to determine that before PoPLA. Just make sure you obtain pics of signs and car park entrance as soon as possible, including the station/GWR signs as well as CRAPCOA's signs.I married my cousin. I had to...I don't have a sister.
All my screwdrivers are cordless."You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks0 -
Determining whether bye laws apply or not is not easy. I have asked FGW three times. At the first two they referred me to Apcoa, and the third time they said they did not know and referred me to the local Council.
I get the impression that they are aware that the Apcoa Contact Law PCNs are a scam and are desperate not to go there. However, the Station Manager at Tilehurst has told me that the land is owned by RailTrack and leased to the TOC. I am assuming therefore, that unless they prove otherwise, that land is covered by byelaws.
They are persistent, I have already had three threateners from their poodle DR+, and have in turn threatened them with the BPA, Trading Standards, the DVLA, and my MP.You never know how far you can go until you go too far.0 -
I agree with The Deep. However sometimes the landowner has their own signs, so the names Railtrack or GWR may appear on the station car park signs, and/or may appear on the CRAPCOA signs. The latter is certainly the case at my Local GWR station wot is further down the line from Swindon.
The thing to do is state that byelaws apply in your initial appeal, and also as the first PoPLA appeal point if it isn't cancelled, in addition to using all the other appeal points available. It is then up to CRAPCOA to prove the opposite. If they do, then you will probably win on other points anyway, but this site will have gained valuable knowledge about that particular site.
If CRAPCOA cannot provide proof that byelaws do not apply, then PoPLA should find in favour of the motorist on those grounds, and this site will also have gained valuable information for another appeals.I married my cousin. I had to...I don't have a sister.All my screwdrivers are cordless."You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks0 -
Someone posted this on pepipoo - thoughts everyone?
I refer to PCN ********
I have considered the offer to make payment for a PCN laid against myself as the registered keeper of the vehicle concerned.
A bye-law contravention cannot be laid against the registered keeper of a vehicle, and the issue of a PCN under the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 also fails to invoke keeper liability for an event taking place on non relevant land, ie an area covered by bye-laws. Bye-laws are applicable to the actual driver of the vehicle and as I was not the driver I have no part to play in this matter so your offer is meaningless to myself.
As I have declined the offer to make payment to avoid a bye-law case being sent to a magistrates court I invite you now to close this matter, or to take action against the actual driver of the vehicle at that time, should the identity be known to you.
You now have no further use of my personal details so I demand that you remove my details from your records under S.10 of the Data Protection Act, and inform me of that within 14 days from the date of this letter.
Further use will be deemed to be a breach of the DPA and an action for damages may taken accordingly.0 -
Not correct. In general, byelaws are not applicable to the driver or keeper, but to the owner. It is important therefore that they never find out who that is.
Otherwise it looks OK, but only mentions a single point. Your initial post was OK as it was, although it could be beefed up with more info about byelaws. Alternatively the BPA template in the NEWBIES would do.
At this stage all you are after is to engage the PPC within the appeal window, and hook a PoPLA code. Whilst it is possible that CRAPCOA will fold if they see the mention of byelaws, I wouldn't hold my breath. You will however beat them at PoPLA as long as you follow the advice on the NEWBIES.
So, bung in an initial appeal that doesn't involve too much work (but do mention byelaws), and save the big guns for PoPLA.I married my cousin. I had to...I don't have a sister.All my screwdrivers are cordless."You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks0 -
Thanks for that - so here's my final draft. Also, should I send separate appeals to the two PCNs or can I reference both on the one appeal?
Dear APCOA Parking (UK) Ltd
Re PCN number: xxxx, Vehicle Registration No. xxxxxx
I am the keeper of the vehicle and am aware of your alleged 'parking charge' and I challenge this PCN as the keeper of the vehicle.
I believe that your signs fail the test of 'large lettering' and prominence, as established in ParkingEye Ltd v Beavis. The driver did not see your unremarkable and obscure signs, are in very small print and the terms are not readable to drivers.
Since byelaws apply to railway land, the land is not relevant land within the meaning of PoFA and so is specifically excluded from 'keeper liability' under Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012. As I am the registered keeper I am not legally liable as this Act does not apply on this land. Please provide evidence including documentary proof from the Rail authorities that this land is not already covered by bylaws.
There will be no admissions as to who was driving and no assumptions can be drawn. You must either rely on the POFA 2012 and offer me a POPLA code, or cancel the charge.
Should you obtain the registered keeper's data from the DVLA without reasonable cause, please take this as formal notice that I reserve the right to sue your company and the landowner/principal, for a sum not less than £250 for any Data Protection Act breach. Your aggressive business practice and unwarranted threat of court for the ordinary matter of a driver using my car without causing any obstruction nor offence, has caused significant distress to me.
I do not give you consent to process data relating to me or this vehicle. I deny liability for any sum at all and you must consider this letter a Section 10 Notice under the DPA. You are required to respond within 21 days. I have kept proof of submission of this appeal and look forward to your reply.
Yours faithfully,0 -
I'm not sure it is necessarily as difficult as it might at first sight appears. If one was seeking absolute guidance than I suggest that the body to contact is Network Rail (as the successor to Railtrack who in turn replaced the Strategic Rail Authority) not the seemingly relevant TOC i.e. FGW. The boundary between the land that is managed by a TOC as opposed to that managed by NR is sometimes unclear but NR have the ultimate responsibility. The secret is to ask whether a particular car park is a "railway asset" not to ask if the byelaws are in force on it or not. The byelaws apply to all "railway assets" which are broadly defined as:Determining whether bye laws apply or not is not easy. I have asked FGW three times. At the first two they referred me to Apcoa, and the third time they said they did not know and referred me to the local Council.
The relevant further definition is that of a "station" which is defined as:(a) any train being used on a network, whether for the purpose of carrying passengers or goods by railway or for any other purpose whatsoever;
(b) any network;
(c) any station; or
(d) any light maintenance depot.
It also includes rolling stock other than trains.
It is hardly unreasonable to conclude that a car park at a railway station which hasany land or other property which consists of premises used as, or for the purposes of, or otherwise in connection with, a railway passenger station or railway passenger terminal (including any approaches, forecourt, cycle store or car park), whether or not the land or other property is, or the premises are, also used for other purposes.(s.83(1) Railways Act 1993)
a). Multiple signs that identifies the TOC
b). Talks of it being a "railway car park" or "station car park" (such as this one does)
c). As in this case has signage stating "Car Park for Rail Customers Only"
d). Is immediately adjacent to railway lines (i.e. "network")
e). When viewed on a map sits within a clearly identified boundary that would have formed Swindon railway station and yards (as it once was)
Is a "railway asset" within the above meaning.
In any defence - were APCOA to do so (a relatively rare event) - then I would suggest that they are put to strict proof that the byelaws do not apply. It is for an operator to show that they operate on "relevant land" not for the motorist to disprove it although it is very sensible to do so. The same would apply to an appeal to POPLA.
This argument has recently been successfully used in a case involving UKPPO.
I further suggest that the above definition would extend to a former railway car park that might be leased (as opposed to purchased) by a car park operator, such as NCP (Though not Napier as they usually purchase the land they operate on. So those of you thinking about their car parks at Kings Lynn or Fareham - they were both purchased - can sit back down
). My very sincere apologies for those hoping to request off-board assistance but I am now so inundated with requests that in order to do justice to those "already in the system" I am no longer accepting PM's and am unlikely to do so for the foreseeable future (August 2016).
For those seeking more detailed advice and guidance regarding small claims cases arising from private parking issues I recommend that you visit the Private Parking forum on PePiPoo.com0 -
billythefish1 wrote: »Thanks for that - so here's my final draft. Also, should I send separate appeals to the two PCNs or can I reference both on the one appeal?
Dear APCOA Parking (UK) Ltd
Re PCN number: xxxx, Vehicle Registration No. xxxxxx
I am the keeper of the vehicle and am aware of your alleged 'parking charge' and I challenge this PCN as the keeper of the vehicle.
I believe that your signs fail the test of 'large lettering' and prominence, as established in ParkingEye Ltd v Beavis. The driver did not see your unremarkable and obscure signs, are in very small print and the terms are not readable to drivers.
Since byelaws apply to railway land, the land is not relevant land within the meaning of PoFA and so is specifically excluded from 'keeper liability' under Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012. As I am the registered keeper I am not legally liable as this Act does not apply on this land. Please provide evidence including documentary proof from the Rail authorities that this land is not already covered by bylaws.
There will be no admissions as to who was driving and no assumptions can be drawn. You must either rely on the POFA 2012 and offer me a POPLA code, or cancel the charge.
Should you obtain the registered keeper's data from the DVLA without reasonable cause, please take this as formal notice that I reserve the right to sue your company and the landowner/principal, for a sum not less than £250 for any Data Protection Act breach. Your aggressive business practice and unwarranted threat of court for the ordinary matter of a driver using my car without causing any obstruction nor offence, has caused significant distress to me.
I do not give you consent to process data relating to me or this vehicle. I deny liability for any sum at all and you must consider this letter a Section 10 Notice under the DPA. You are required to respond within 21 days. I have kept proof of submission of this appeal and look forward to your reply.
Yours faithfully,
I already told you in my original reply to you (post 3) that you need separate appeals for each PCN. Apart from that, it looks ready to submit.I married my cousin. I had to...I don't have a sister.All my screwdrivers are cordless."You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks0 -
Thanks Fruitcake - sorry missed that one. Emails going off tonight so will update when I have a response.0
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