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After just winning a POPLA!

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  • Umkomaas
    Umkomaas Posts: 41,346 Forumite
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    But you’ve still not put anything into your appeal on Grace Periods. With just 15 minutes in the car park, GPs are potentially a strong winning point, provided you articulate how the time was consumed in arrival and departure delays.

    You still haven’t confirmed if the NtK was PoFA-compliant - yet you are suggesting in your appeal that it wasn’t. But you need to say why/how it wasn’t compliant.
    Please note, we are not a legal advice forum. I personally don't get involved in critiquing court case Defences/Witness Statements, so unable to help on that front. Please don't ask. .

    I provide only my personal opinion, it is not a legal opinion, it is simply a personal one. I am not a lawyer.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.

    Private Parking Firms - Killing the High Street
  • claxtome
    claxtome Posts: 628 Forumite
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    when submitting the appeal is it safe to attach a link to the pictures on the photo host or just embed them into the pdf just some a panoramic shots and not got much depth when attached to a page.
    I am not certain of the best approach but I would say embed.
    BUT
    Is it a good idea to add photos in a POPLA appeal?
    I am not sure as post #21 of my thread, sent you link above, advised not to include NTK and specimen sign but not sure about your entrance photos.

    What do other people think?
  • Umkomaas
    Umkomaas Posts: 41,346 Forumite
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    edited 18 October 2017 at 12:25PM
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    Def embed photos. Don’t make the appeal difficult for the assessor to read by expecting him/her to opening endless links when you can make it much easier for him/her.

    Try not to alienate an assessor, do your best to get them on your side with good appeal layout, bullet point opening list, emboldened headings above each appeal point, good formatting, plenty of correctly paragraphed text blocks, remove unnecessary links to mahoosive legal judgments (copy the relevant paragraphs and embed those in a text box).

    @OP - check your appeal against above.
    Please note, we are not a legal advice forum. I personally don't get involved in critiquing court case Defences/Witness Statements, so unable to help on that front. Please don't ask. .

    I provide only my personal opinion, it is not a legal opinion, it is simply a personal one. I am not a lawyer.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.

    Private Parking Firms - Killing the High Street
  • KeithP
    KeithP Posts: 37,637 Forumite
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    Umkomaas wrote: »
    But you’ve still not put anything into your appeal on Grace Periods. With just 15 minutes in the car park, GPs are potentially a strong winning point, provided you articulate how the time was consumed in arrival and departure delays.
    It is very easy to miss, but the OP has dropped a few lines on Grace Periods starting "Paragraph 13 of the BPA CoP states “reasonable and visable” Grace periods" in an arbitrary position.
    It goes on to quote some of the BPA CoP, but that's it - no assertion that the grace periods cover the alleged overstay.

    As you say Umkomaas, the layout needs drastic improvement if success is to be achieved.
  • DD1A
    DD1A Posts: 161 Forumite
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    i have been through paragraph 9 of POFA and i cannot see anything at fault so id say the ntk is complaint

    so i will remove the following

    The operator has not shown that the individual who it is pursuing is in fact liable for the charge.
    In cases with a keeper appellant, yet no POFA 'keeper liability' to rely upon, POPLA must first consider whether they are confident that the Assessor knows who the driver is, based on the evidence received. No presumption can be made about liability whatsoever. A vehicle can be driven by any person (with the consent of the owner) as long as the driver is insured. There is no dispute that the driver was entitled to drive the car and I can confirm that they were, but I am exercising my right not to name that person. Where a charge is aimed only at a driver then, of course, no other party can be told to pay, not by POPLA, nor the operator, nor even in court. I am the appellant throughout (as I am entitled to be), and as there has been no admission regarding who was driving, and no evidence has been produced. Full compliance with the POFA was confirmed by parking law expert barrister, Henry Greenslade, the previous POPLA Lead Adjudicator, in 2015:- Understanding keeper liability
    “There appears to be continuing misunderstanding about Schedule 4. Provided certain conditions are strictly complied with, it provides for recovery of unpaid parking charges from the keeper of the vehicle. There is no reasonable presumption’ in law that the registered keeper of a vehicle is the driver. Operators should never suggest anything of the sort. Further, a failure by the recipient of a notice issued under Schedule 4 to name the driver, does not of itself mean that the recipient has accepted that they were the driver at the material time. Unlike, for example, a Notice of Intended Prosecution where details of the driver of a vehicle must be supplied when requested by the police, pursuant to Section 172 of the Road Traffic Act 1988, a keeper sent a Schedule 4 notice has no legal obligation to name the driver. [...] If {POFA 2012 Schedule 4 is} not complied with then keeper liability does not generally pass.''No lawful right exists to pursue unpaid parking charges from a keeper, where an operator is NOT attempting to transfer the liability for the charge using the POFA. This exact finding was made in a very similar case with the same style NTK in 6061796103 v ParkingEye in September 2016, where POPLA Assessor Carly Law found: ''I note the operator advises that it is not attempting to transfer the liability for the charge using the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 and so in mind, the operator continues to hold the driver responsible. As such, I must first consider whether I am confident that I know who the driver is, based on the evidence received. After considering the evidence, I am unable to confirm that the appellant is in fact the driver. As such, I must allow the appeal on the basis that the operator has failed to demonstrate that the appellant is the driver and therefore liable for the charge. As I am allowing the appeal on this basis, I do not need to consider the other grounds of appeal raised by the appellant. Accordingly, I must allow this appeal.''
  • KeithP
    KeithP Posts: 37,637 Forumite
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    Read this POPLA appeal:

    It should give you some ideas about presentation and there is a section on Grace Periods which could be adapted easily to suit your circumstances.

    You might find some other parts of that POPLA appeal useful in your case too, but do please ensure that everything you use is relevant to your situation.
  • DD1A
    DD1A Posts: 161 Forumite
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    edited 23 October 2017 at 5:24PM
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    ive had a run through it again and tidied it up,

    POPLA Ref: #############
    ECP Ref: ########

    (REVISED)
  • KeithP
    KeithP Posts: 37,637 Forumite
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    edited 18 October 2017 at 3:33PM
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    So still no suggestion that the Grace Periods have been ignored?

    You need to say something like:
    The total time from arrival to exit was nn minutes. That is a nn-minute period for the driver to park the vehicle, exit the vehicle and find a sign to read the signs of the car park, the driver then would need to make a decision on whether they wish to remain parked at that car park, decide they didn't like the terms and exit the car park. It is clear from the evidence that Euro Car Parks have failed to uphold and consider the necessary grace periods set out in the BPA Code of Practice, as the total time within the car park does not allow for the driver to make the necessary observations, nor allow the necessary grace period for leaving the car park.
    That's from the POPLA appeal I linked to earlier.
    Adjust it further to suit if you like.
  • DD1A
    DD1A Posts: 161 Forumite
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    edited 18 October 2017 at 4:27PM
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    I have revised with the added info
    It is just after Paragraph 13 of the BPA CoP

    Thanks for this info i forgot to add this part thanks for pointing it out KeithP

    popla 28 days appeal is weekdays and weekends? guess my deadline is going to be 24th oct from the 26th sept when ntk appeal response was issued?
  • Umkomaas
    Umkomaas Posts: 41,346 Forumite
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    DD1A wrote: »
    I have revised with the added info
    It is just after Paragraph 13 of the BPA CoP

    Thanks for this info i forgot to add this part thanks for pointing it out KeithP

    popla 28 days appeal is weekdays and weekends? guess my deadline is going to be 24th oct from the 26th sept when ntk appeal response was issued?

    You can’t just drop ‘Grace Periods’ randomly into the middle of your Signage appeal point, and then just simply copying and pasting a straight lift from the BPA Code of Practice. It needs to be a freestanding and numbered appeal point in it’s own right. And you’ve got to add the reason why the GPs were utilised (as per the wording already given to you by KeithP).

    I must say this isn’t going well.
    Please note, we are not a legal advice forum. I personally don't get involved in critiquing court case Defences/Witness Statements, so unable to help on that front. Please don't ask. .

    I provide only my personal opinion, it is not a legal opinion, it is simply a personal one. I am not a lawyer.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.

    Private Parking Firms - Killing the High Street
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