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  • FIRST POST
    • toffee'n'tom
    • By toffee'n'tom 11th Sep 12, 9:09 PM
    • 426Posts
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    toffee'n'tom
    Didn't pay train fare!!!!
    • #1
    • 11th Sep 12, 9:09 PM
    Didn't pay train fare!!!! 11th Sep 12 at 9:09 PM
    I travelled on the train to work today for the first time ever (only because there is no train station where I live - nothing against train travel). I took my car for an MOT to a garage next to an unmanned train station with no ticket machine and I was travelling about 3 miles to the end of the line. I've only ever travelled a few times on a train from a main station when I have either purchased the ticket on line or at the station.

    Anyway my son said that a conductor would collect my fare on the train. I got on - money in hand - but no conductor. We stopped at one station. Still no conductor and then we reached the end of the line. I disembarked and no conductor and no-one to pay and no turnstile to get out.

    I know it was only 90p but I felt dreadful. I absolutely instill into my two children not to be dishonest in any way whatsoever and I even gave a lecture about avoiding train fares only that week (not that they would!) as both were catching a train themselves. And there I was - fare dodging!

    Now I may have to take my car in again. What should I have done?
Page 2
    • marlot
    • By marlot 12th Sep 12, 5:58 AM
    • 4,010 Posts
    • 3,158 Thanks
    marlot
    Thankfully I don't have a disability or I may have been offended by that remark!!! Easy to say if you travel by train every day. At least 30+ got on at the station and I didn't witness them in large numbers wandering around the train in search of a guard!
    Originally posted by toffee'n'tom
    Oh for goodness sake. I do have a disability but I'd never take offence at such a remark on a forum - its not as if they can see my walking stick!

    A whole 30+ people getting on the train! A small station then, and probably a relatively short train (often 12 carriages at the station I use, with 30-40 people enteringn each carriage).
    • photome
    • By photome 12th Sep 12, 6:17 AM
    • 14,218 Posts
    • 9,725 Thanks
    photome
    Thankfully I don't have a disability or I may have been offended by that remark!!! Easy to say if you travel by train every day. At least 30+ got on at the station and I didn't witness them in large numbers wandering around the train in search of a guard!
    Originally posted by toffee'n'tom
    Why should they its up to the train company to collect your fare.

    I would forget about it
    • andygb
    • By andygb 12th Sep 12, 6:24 AM
    • 13,209 Posts
    • 29,975 Thanks
    andygb
    Next time don't collude to defraud the train company and its users. You should be ashamed and disgusted with yourself.
    Originally posted by Zanzibar

    IDIOT!

    Our local station does not have a ticket office or machine, and the penalty fare machine has been regularly vandalised (quite possibly by vagrants who want a nice collection of 5p pieces to put towards their alcohol fund).
    Therefore there is no option but to purchase the ticket on the train or at the station which you are getting off. Sometimes there is no conducter, or they spend their time skulking in the compartment at the end of the train.
  • pendulum
    Heres a handy guide for you. Don't listen to people that help you evade fares even if they work for the train company - they are abusing their job. Find another guard and inform them of the practice and pay your way like you should have. If not look left and right and you will find a policeman on the street to assist you.

    Your wrong doing is obviously still with you - and I suggest you make amends now - its never to late to pay reparations for your errant behavior. You know you did wrong so pay for it.
    Originally posted by Zanzibar
    You'd need a parachute if you fell off that high horse of yours.
    I actually laughed out loud at your ridiculous post. You come across as a manic bible basher.

    I drove 1mph over the limit today. Should I turn myself in?
    • Joe Horner
    • By Joe Horner 12th Sep 12, 9:21 AM
    • 4,744 Posts
    • 4,213 Thanks
    Joe Horner
    I think you'll find that Zanzibar's post was a p*sstake of Tricky's equally preachy post to the OP

    If the train companies don't provide reasonable facilities to pay in all cases (to reduce their operating costs) then there's no reason at all why the customer should take up the slack and do their job for them.

    OP - don't sweat it, it was only 90p, which is probably why they don't want to pay for the cost of ensuring it's collected in every case. The charity box suggestion earlier is a good one if you genuinely feel bad about not being able to pay
    • Stigy
    • By Stigy 12th Sep 12, 9:55 AM
    • 1,532 Posts
    • 638 Thanks
    Stigy
    I think you'll find that Zanzibar's post was a p*sstake of Tricky's equally preachy post to the OP

    If the train companies don't provide reasonable facilities to pay in all cases (to reduce their operating costs) then there's no reason at all why the customer should take up the slack and do their job for them.

    OP - don't sweat it, it was only 90p, which is probably why they don't want to pay for the cost of ensuring it's collected in every case. The charity box suggestion earlier is a good one if you genuinely feel bad about not being able to pay
    Originally posted by Joe Horner
    The vast majority of people I've reported have been for fares of around 1.90 (the minimum fare down south...). To most people that seems like an insignificant amount to potentially trouble the Magistrates with, but if you take in to account the thousands of 1.90 fares that go avoided each year, it soon mounts up to many thousands of pounds.

    It's the same however low the fare, all those 90p fares add up and are particularly vulnerable on short hop journeys such as this. Fare evasion also affects the yearly fares increase too...As does the staff payrise of about 5%pa of course .
    • arcon5
    • By arcon5 12th Sep 12, 10:22 AM
    • 13,676 Posts
    • 8,656 Thanks
    arcon5
    Oh my god... this thread is out of control!!! :O

    For what it's worth op, i'd have done the same as you and don't think you have anything to feel bad about.
    Whenever i've used a train with a ticket system at the station I have always taken a seat and waited for the conductor to come around - in fact most people i've seen do this.

    I'm betting had you walked around the train looking for the conductor and fell or something when the train was moving you'd be met with responses along the lines of 'you should have been seated whilst the train was moving'.
    • andygb
    • By andygb 12th Sep 12, 10:47 AM
    • 13,209 Posts
    • 29,975 Thanks
    andygb
    It's the same however low the fare, all those 90p fares add up and are particularly vulnerable on short hop journeys such as this. Fare evasion also affects the yearly fares increase too...As does the staff payrise of about 5%pa of course .
    Originally posted by Stigy

    Then if it is that crucial, the train companies should ensure that EVERY passenger at EVERY station can purchase a ticket as easily as possible.
    They are supposed to be running a profitable business - employ more people and instal more machines, and the amount of people unable to purchase a ticket will decrease.
    Not exactly rocket science is it?
    • Stigy
    • By Stigy 12th Sep 12, 10:53 AM
    • 1,532 Posts
    • 638 Thanks
    Stigy
    Then if it is that crucial, the train companies should ensure that EVERY passenger at EVERY station can purchase a ticket as easily as possible.
    They are supposed to be running a profitable business - employ more people and instal more machines, and the amount of people unable to purchase a ticket will decrease.
    Not exactly rocket science is it?
    Originally posted by andygb
    True in a lot of cases, but in general, there's ample ticket issuing facilities for it not to be an issue in an ideal world. I appreciate that it's different in the OP's part of the country, but that's not the same everywhere.
    • toffee'n'tom
    • By toffee'n'tom 12th Sep 12, 12:05 PM
    • 426 Posts
    • 303 Thanks
    toffee'n'tom
    Before Boarding

    If there is a TVM (Ticket-Vending Machine) at the origin, you should purchase a ticket before boarding, however if the TVM does not accept your method of payment (card only machine if you want to pay by cash, for example), it is considered that you have not had an opportunity to pay. If the machine takes cards only, you are not obliged to pay by card if you wish to pay by cash, even if you have cards with you, and vice versa.

    If there is a Permit to Travel (PTT) machine, you need to insert as much in coins as you can up to the fare due, and the machine will issue a receipt. You can then exchange the receipt onboard or at the destination for the ticket by paying the balance. PTT machines take coins only so if you wish to pay by card then that is not an opportunity to pay.

    If there is an open ticket office at the origin then obviously you need to pay there. If the ticket office is closed, then that is not an opportunity to pay either.

    Onboard

    If you had no opportunity to pay before boarding, you are not obliged to find the guard onboard. Contrary to what many people believe, this is not a requirement. Just take a seat and wait for the guard to come around. Indeed if you go off in search for the guard, this is considered very bad manners if you then jump in front of other paying passengers on some local lines.

    After the Journey

    If by the time you alight at the destination station, you have still not had an opportunity to pay, then you pay at the destination station if possible. If facilities are not available at the destination station, consider it your lucky day. You have done all you can and it is not your fault that the railway companies made no facilities available to you.

    It is debatable if the only facility at the destination station is a TVM, whether you should purchase a ticket for the reverse direction. Previously contacts with some railway companies suggest yes, while others no. Bear in mind that the fare for the reverse direction could well be different. I believe that you do not have to purchase a ticket from the TVM at the destination as in most cases, it would not sell you a valid ticket for the journey you have undertaken.

    At Interchange Station

    If you have to change trains en route, you can make an effort to pay at the interchange station, however you are not obliged to miss your connecting service if the interchange time is short.

    Finally

    If you really feel bad afterwards, you can always ask the railway company to send you a bill for the remaining balance or send a cheque in.

    I hope I have covered everything.
    Originally posted by bb21
    I think that's pretty thorough and thanks very much. I thought I did everything I possibly could, i even went back onto the platform after the journey to see if i could see anyone.

    And Tricky Wicky I didn't take offence, you just p'd me off a bit with your comments so i thought i'd do the same to you. Clearly I was not deliberately fare dodging. that is obtaining goods/services by deception which requires the necessary intent.

    I just felt bad about it, having given my kids a lecture about avoiding paying fares that very week (not that they ever have) and there I am doing exactly that (well sort of).. I've worked in the criminal justice system for over 25 years and don't want to see a file with any of my family's names on it!!! Even if it was only 90p!!
    • Joe Horner
    • By Joe Horner 12th Sep 12, 12:05 PM
    • 4,744 Posts
    • 4,213 Thanks
    Joe Horner
    The vast majority of people I've reported have been for fares of around 1.90 (the minimum fare down south...). To most people that seems like an insignificant amount to potentially trouble the Magistrates with, but if you take in to account the thousands of 1.90 fares that go avoided each year, it soon mounts up to many thousands of pounds.

    It's the same however low the fare, all those 90p fares add up and are particularly vulnerable on short hop journeys such as this. Fare evasion also affects the yearly fares increase too...As does the staff payrise of about 5%pa of course .
    Originally posted by Stigy
    In which case the companies should ensure that there's a way for people to pay without having to go searching a moving train for someone who may, or may not, be there.

    A passenger's job is to pay the fare and sit on the train. A train company's job is to collect the fare and drive it. If the companies cut their costs by skimping on the collection side then that really isn't the passnegers' problem any more than it's my customers' problem if I save money by not raising invoices.
    • toffee'n'tom
    • By toffee'n'tom 12th Sep 12, 12:08 PM
    • 426 Posts
    • 303 Thanks
    toffee'n'tom
    Oh my god... this thread is out of control!!! :O

    For what it's worth op, i'd have done the same as you and don't think you have anything to feel bad about.
    Whenever i've used a train with a ticket system at the station I have always taken a seat and waited for the conductor to come around - in fact most people i've seen do this.

    I'm betting had you walked around the train looking for the conductor and fell or something when the train was moving you'd be met with responses along the lines of 'you should have been seated whilst the train was moving'.
    Originally posted by arcon5
    It's made me laugh though
    • Stigy
    • By Stigy 12th Sep 12, 3:42 PM
    • 1,532 Posts
    • 638 Thanks
    Stigy
    In which case the companies should ensure that there's a way for people to pay without having to go searching a moving train for someone who may, or may not, be there.

    A passenger's job is to pay the fare and sit on the train. A train company's job is to collect the fare and drive it. If the companies cut their costs by skimping on the collection side then that really isn't the passnegers' problem any more than it's my customers' problem if I save money by not raising invoices.
    Originally posted by Joe Horner
    As I said in my previous post, most times there ARE ample ticket purchasing facilities, and it's only more rural areas and/or those that are well documented that buying on board is permitted that have limited or no facilities.

    Most rural areas and/or small branch lines (usually in the north of England and Scotland/Wales etc.) only consist of 1, 2 or 3 coach trains, and 'halt' style stations whereby it wouldn't be cost effective to have barriers or even ticket machines or ticket offices. I understand that some trains get very busy, but most of the time, is it really that difficult to locate a Guard on a 2 coach train which is more like a bus than a train?
    • photome
    • By photome 12th Sep 12, 4:07 PM
    • 14,218 Posts
    • 9,725 Thanks
    photome
    True in a lot of cases, but in general, there's ample ticket issuing facilities for it not to be an issue in an ideal world. I appreciate that it's different in the OP's part of the country, but that's not the same everywhere.
    Originally posted by Stigy
    But we arent talking in general, the OP relates to one specific journey, so as said if the operating company wants all the 90p they should ensure they can collect

    there should be no need to "locate" a guard, the guard should be locating the passenger

    If it was like a bus the passengers would be paying the driver, train companies cant have it all ways
    Last edited by photome; 12-09-2012 at 4:10 PM.
    • pinkteapot
    • By pinkteapot 12th Sep 12, 4:20 PM
    • 6,578 Posts
    • 8,603 Thanks
    pinkteapot
    Next time go and find the conductor instead. They're always on the train so you've no excuse not to pay your fare.
    Originally posted by TrickyWicky
    I commute two hours a day by train and plenty of times there's no guard in my section of the train (they're split into four carriage blocks and you can't walk through from one set of four carriages to the next).

    On my trains it's the driver that makes all the announcements so for all I know there isn't a guard in any of the 2-3 sets of carriages.
    • Stigy
    • By Stigy 12th Sep 12, 5:07 PM
    • 1,532 Posts
    • 638 Thanks
    Stigy
    But we arent talking in general, the OP relates to one specific journey, so as said if the operating company wants all the 90p they should ensure they can collect

    there should be no need to "locate" a guard, the guard should be locating the passenger

    If it was like a bus the passengers would be paying the driver, train companies cant have it all ways
    Originally posted by photome
    My response was to Andygb and Joe Horner, both of whom were tarring the whole industry with the same brush so to speak, and weren't being specific to this case, hence my replies.

    I'd be willing to bet that if Guards walked through EVERY train after EVERY stop, the punters would soon be whinging when asked more than once for their ticket because the Guard, like most of us, hasn't got a photographic memory and forgets who he's checked already!
    Last edited by Stigy; 12-09-2012 at 5:11 PM.
    • Joe Horner
    • By Joe Horner 12th Sep 12, 5:25 PM
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    • 4,213 Thanks
    Joe Horner
    My response was to Andygb and Joe Horner, both of whom were tarring the whole industry with the same brush so to speak
    Originally posted by Stigy
    No I wasn't, I was commenting about the (specific) cases where the companies have chosen to reduce costs in this way. That only "tars the whole industry" insofar as it's the same companies cutting costs in these isolated cases as are running the rest of the industry.
    • photome
    • By photome 12th Sep 12, 5:29 PM
    • 14,218 Posts
    • 9,725 Thanks
    photome
    My response was to Andygb and Joe Horner, both of whom were tarring the whole industry with the same brush so to speak, and weren't being specific to this case, hence my replies.

    I'd be willing to bet that if Guards walked through EVERY train after EVERY stop, the punters would soon be whinging when asked more than once for their ticket because the Guard, like most of us, hasn't got a photographic memory and forgets who he's checked already!
    Originally posted by Stigy
    your replies are getting worse. Its now the "punters" (not passengers or customers) fault that there are no guards to collect fares
    • Livingthedream
    • By Livingthedream 12th Sep 12, 5:46 PM
    • 2,530 Posts
    • 3,489 Thanks
    Livingthedream
    Oh my god... this thread is out of control!!! :O
    Originally posted by arcon5
    Yes, the outrage bus is getting good mileage with this thread.

    your replies are getting worse. Its now the "punters" (not passengers or customers) fault that there are no guards to collect fares
    Originally posted by photome
    Revenue collection is only a small/minor part of a guard's job, their main responsibility is train safety. A lot of Train Companies now employ ticket examiners who are only concerned with revenue collection, but unfortunately most only work around Peak train hours.
    Whoa! This image violates our terms of use and has been removed from view
    • Stigy
    • By Stigy 12th Sep 12, 5:56 PM
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    • 638 Thanks
    Stigy
    your replies are getting worse. Its now the "punters" (not passengers or customers) fault that there are no guards to collect fares
    Originally posted by photome
    Please don't twist my words. I have not once blamed the customers, I'm stating that they would get the hump if the Guard asked them more than once for a ticket, which, from experience, they do. I am also not saying that there aren't Guards, because there are usually. I don't see that referring to them as punters is at all derogatory either. I have heard people mutter about such staff being jobsworths before.

    As Livingthedream has said, ticketing is also only a small part of they Guard's role, as their main duty is for the safe operation of the train, and safe carriage of the passengers.
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