Disciplinary hearing- protected conversation- leave

Mumtobe2016 · 5 October 2018 at 10:36PM

Hi,
I'm writing for some advice as I have been suspended from work pending an investigation into gross misconduct. They are saying I have been lying on my timesheets and have claimed over 3 hours extra when I haven't been travelling e.g stopped at the shop (I go to different places across the country).
I have been informed they want to proceed with a disciplinary hearing but I don't know what will happen here or what I'm meant to do.
Also I've requested a protected conversation but the h.r person who is dealing with this was very reluctant to pass this onto the manager and now it's too late as it's weekend. Can I request she asks again, and if the company agree, to have it before the hearing? I feel my best option is to resign as it's turning into a bit of a witch hunt and don't feel it will go my way. All I want is a decent reference to go forward. What can I do?

Brynsam · 5 October 2018 at 11:25PM

Mumtobe2016 wrote: »

Hi,
I'm writing for some advice as I have been suspended from work pending an investigation into gross misconduct. They are saying I have been lying on my timesheets and have claimed over 3 hours extra when I haven't been travelling e.g stopped at the shop (I go to different places across the country).
I have been informed they want to proceed with a disciplinary hearing but I don't know what will happen here or what I'm meant to do.
Also I've requested a protected conversation but the h.r person who is dealing with this was very reluctant to pass this onto the manager and now it's too late as it's weekend. Can I request she asks again, and if the company agree, to have it before the hearing? I feel my best option is to resign as it's turning into a bit of a witch hunt and don't feel it will go my way. All I want is a decent reference to go forward. What can I do?

All you want is a decent reference. That does rather sound as if you accept your timesheet have not been accurate?

Les79 · 6 October 2018 at 12:02AM

Well, 3 hours is a very low amount to be bringing up the "gross misconduct" charge! It could so easily be user error (you or them) and absolutely easily rectifiable*

And, frankly, how can they keep tabs on you when you are out of the office?!

I don't know, it just seems really weak... Seems like there could be more to this story....?

If I were you I'd get onto ACAS (and/or your union if you're in one) in the morning and see what they say.

* That being said, if it was merely the act of going to the shop then maybe it takes 10 mins and you did it 18 times.... etc etc. That sort of scenario would make more sense I guess, but I feel that a grovelling apology should be enough? "I'm sorry, I wasn't aware of that but I'll make up the 3 hours and will not count shop trips in future" - bonus points if you can quote managers or employee handbook documents.

Comms69 · 6 October 2018 at 12:12AM

How long you worked there?

paul_ford · 6 October 2018 at 12:12AM

I feel for you. Hold up dont give in.
My nephew is on suspension. But its over a doctors note rather than time sheets.
I think some HR managers are corrupt. Good luck.

Comms69 · 6 October 2018 at 12:15AM

HR managers protect the business and that isn’t corrupt!

Mumtobe2016 · 6 October 2018 at 2:42AM

I have accepted that I have made errors and at times have our down times when i shouldn't have, but not to be a fraud (which was mentioned in a meeting) or to claim maliciously just genuine error. The apology and explanations were not enough, I offered to work and pay back to time immediately but they have started to look my journey times, work time, breaks claimed for... everything in absolute detail and so I feel the best thing for me to do is leave the company. I don't want to risk going into a hearing , and even it's a warning, end up with something on my record that could prevent me from getting another job.

Comms69 · 6 October 2018 at 9:17AM

Mumtobe2016 wrote: »

I have accepted that I have made errors and at times have our down times when i shouldn't have, but not to be a fraud (which was mentioned in a meeting) or to claim maliciously just genuine error. The apology and explanations were not enough, I offered to work and pay back to time immediately but they have started to look my journey times, work time, breaks claimed for... everything in absolute detail and so I feel the best thing for me to do is leave the company. I don't want to risk going into a hearing , and even it's a warning, end up with something on my record that could prevent me from getting another job.

Then negotiate a reference. At the minute if you leave; the reference can say left whilst under investigation for fraudulently claiming expenses

sangie595 · 6 October 2018 at 10:07AM

It is employers who initiate protected conversations, and so you have no right to one. Nor, in this situation, does a protected conversation apply. So you could not depend on any such conversation being confidential. Nor is there any inducement for the employer to wish to have a confidential conversation with you. For them to wish to do so, there would need to be "something in it for them". There isn't anything. They have evidence of misconduct. Whether they choose to dismiss or not then becomes a matter of choice for them.

You cannot entirely blame them for starting to look at other aspects of your timekeeping and records. Being objective, it would be remiss of them to not do so. If everything else is in order it might be easier to argue that this was a genuine error. Of course, if everything else isn't in order, that might explain your desire to leave the company, before they find the rest.

To be honest, if toy are quite sure that you wish to consider the option of resigning, you do not need a protected conversation. All you need to do is ask whether they will consider a neutral reference for your immediate resignation. Provided you are not in an employment where references must be given which include full disclosure, you are as "safe" just asking as anything else. But bear in mind, their word on it is not legally binding, and they could still write a truthful reference. No employer in their right mind is going to go to the expense of a legally binding settlement agreement just for you! So you are at risk, no matter what you do here.

If your other records are all going to be accurate then I'd sit it out. I'd point to this as evidence no ill intent was intended, take a warning and get over it. Such things fall of your record. And then if this is the full story and they dismissed, I'd start unfair dismissal proceedings because I'd then expect them to have an incentive to settle. But that's only a risk I'd take if this version is the full and complete story.

Mumtobe2016 · 6 October 2018 at 11:56AM

I was advised by a solicitor to initiate a protected conversation, which is why I requested one. Through your advice I do feel that I won't have one and so shouldn't pin my hopes on that.

My other records are accurate, however I'm concerned they don't believe me that this is a genuine mistake and so won't believe anything else they want to question e.g they questioned me taking 2 different routes to the same job on different days - one week it was busy on the motorway so I went street route, week later motorway was clear so took that. They are questioning my breaks and how long I take as sometimes I've needed a bit longer - I have IBS which can flare up at any time (work are aware of this) and some times I have been stuck on the toilet unable to come off despite taking medication - or I've taken longer at a service station whilst getting petrol due to this. They have understood before but now it's being questioned. That's why I feel I have no other choice to resign, things which were ok before are now being brought up as more evidence to say I've mislead the company. I feel the suspension and hearing are more than just 3 hours of suspect timings on my time sheet.

I am not in a union but could I still get advice from them. I heard they would not represent me as I have been suspended so the investigation has started- is this true?

I would like to just leave the company, as I feel the relationship I have with the managers will have broken down due to my stupidity by making these errors and request a basic factual reference that would not stop me from getting another job.
Could I do this?
I guess I'm just hoping they will take my dedication to the job and how hard I have worked to help the company into consideration, as well as my home circumstances of just coming back to work after another child as these are genuine errors and we part ways amicably.

Undervalued · 6 October 2018 at 12:40PM

Mumtobe2016 wrote: »

I am not in a union but could I still get advice from them. I heard they would not represent me as I have been suspended so the investigation has started- is this true?

Yes, otherwise it would be a bit like taking out insurance after your house has burnt down and expecting them to buy you a new one!

The only possible exception might be if the union felt your case had important implications for other members.

I would like to just leave the company, as I feel the relationship I have with the managers will have broken down due to my stupidity by making these errors and request a basic factual reference that would not stop me from getting another job.
Could I do this?

You can certainly make that offer and see what they say. They may well agree. As was pointed out earlier the only way of making a reference totally binding is via a formal settlement agreement and it is unlikely (although possible) they would be willing to go to the expense of setting that up. So you would basically be relying on a "gentleman's (or lady's) agreement).

In giving a reference they have a duty to be fair both to you and to the company requesting the reference. However in many fields it is the norm only to give the most basic of references which largely gets round issue. The problem would come if they are asked a specific question eg "was this person ever subject to disciplinary proceedings". If they refuse to answer they are in effect saying "yes but we have done a deal"!

Disciplinary hearing- protected conversation- leave

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