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  • FIRST POST
    • Mtong
    • By Mtong 1st Aug 19, 11:37 AM
    • 10Posts
    • 1Thanks
    Mtong
    Estate - intestate
    • #1
    • 1st Aug 19, 11:37 AM
    Estate - intestate 1st Aug 19 at 11:37 AM
    Hello,

    I'm in need of some advice and help. My father passed away unexpectedly with no will and he was still married to my mother and lived together for the past 37 years with a son and daughter.

    He has two properties (one is rental and the other residence).

    Do I need probate? Both houses are joint tenants (one with mother; one with son). Do I have to pay IHT? Does it count as a gift at death? How do I value the other property as his estate? Is it 50% or 100%?

    Do I need to change the deeds twice ie. father to mother then to son/daughter. Or if I do father to children does that go as IHT?

    I would greatly appreciate anyone help as still not coping with the loss of my father and funeral bill.
Page 1
    • Keep pedalling
    • By Keep pedalling 1st Aug 19, 1:29 PM
    • 6,876 Posts
    • 8,071 Thanks
    Keep pedalling
    • #2
    • 1st Aug 19, 1:29 PM
    • #2
    • 1st Aug 19, 1:29 PM
    As both properties were held as joint tenants they are now automatically owned by by his wife and son respectively, his daughter does not come into it regards the properties.

    IHT will only be applicable if the property he owned with his son was worth more than 650k (double his NRB) or he has very significant other assets that will go to his children under intestacy rules.

    What other assets did he own, and what part of the UK did he live in?
    • Linton
    • By Linton 1st Aug 19, 1:44 PM
    • 11,176 Posts
    • 11,571 Thanks
    Linton
    • #3
    • 1st Aug 19, 1:44 PM
    • #3
    • 1st Aug 19, 1:44 PM
    As the houses are jointly owned rather than as "tenants in common" they pass to the other joint owner on death, whatever a will would have said is irrelevent. Mother gets one house and son gets the other. Daughter gets nothing. So you simply need to get the deeds updated to reflect the death. No probate is required.


    For IHT purposes there is no need to value what I assume is the mother's residence. The house going to the son, assumed to be the rental, is valued and 50% is assigned to the fathers estate. If the half rental house and any other assets not going to Mother plus relevent gifts less any debts total less than 325K there is no IHT to pay.
    • Keep pedalling
    • By Keep pedalling 1st Aug 19, 1:54 PM
    • 6,876 Posts
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    Keep pedalling
    • #4
    • 1st Aug 19, 1:54 PM
    • #4
    • 1st Aug 19, 1:54 PM
    One more question had your father made any gifts outside his 3000 annual exempted allowance in the last 7 years? This would include putting up more than 50% of the capital for the house he jointly owned with his son.
    • Mtong
    • By Mtong 18th Aug 19, 3:41 PM
    • 10 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    Mtong
    • #5
    • 18th Aug 19, 3:41 PM
    • #5
    • 18th Aug 19, 3:41 PM
    Hello Pedling, thank you for your response. My father made no gifts outside of his 3000 allowance in the last 7 years and cash in the bank less than 500. British Airways travel air miles approximately 200. Each property as a joint owner is valued at 425k.
    • Do I need grant of probate or letter of adminstrator?
    • What forms do I need to complete?
    • Is there any IHT to pay?
    • What do I need to do

    Thank you
    • Tom99
    • By Tom99 19th Aug 19, 2:56 AM
    • 4,788 Posts
    • 3,346 Thanks
    Tom99
    • #6
    • 19th Aug 19, 2:56 AM
    • #6
    • 19th Aug 19, 2:56 AM
    Hello Pedling, thank you for your response. My father made no gifts outside of his 3000 allowance in the last 7 years and cash in the bank less than 500. British Airways travel air miles approximately 200. Each property as a joint owner is valued at 425k.
    • Do I need grant of probate or letter of adminstrator?
    • What forms do I need to complete?
    • Is there any IHT to pay?
    • What do I need to do
    Thank you
    Originally posted by Mtong
    You do not need probate for the two properties since they will automatically pass to the two surviving owners.
    Your father's estate is well within the 325k NRB since everything going to your mother is IHT free.
    It would be useful to have a valuation 'fix' on the half share of the property going to son as that will eat into your father's NRB remaining which will transfer to your mother.
    Assuming the full value of this property is 425k your father's share is worth 50% of that less say a further 10% to reflect that it is a share and not the whole so say 191,250.
    Your mother can then inherit an additional 325k - 191.25k = 133.75k making her NRB 325k + 133.75k + 2xRNRB(175k from 4/20) = 808.75k.
    • getmore4less
    • By getmore4less 19th Aug 19, 7:37 AM
    • 37,185 Posts
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    getmore4less
    • #7
    • 19th Aug 19, 7:37 AM
    • #7
    • 19th Aug 19, 7:37 AM
    Who benefited from the rental income on the rental property as that could determine where the beneficial interest was for that property.

    If it was not shared 50:50 that could indicates that the joint tenancy had been severed.

    Although a grant(probate) is probably not going to be needed it would be sensible to do an inheritance tax return to establish the state of the estate and what the transferable nil rate bands will be that will apply to your mothers estate at that time.

    Even if not sent of to HMRC it will make sure you have the records needed later.
    • Keep pedalling
    • By Keep pedalling 19th Aug 19, 9:52 AM
    • 6,876 Posts
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    Keep pedalling
    • #8
    • 19th Aug 19, 9:52 AM
    • #8
    • 19th Aug 19, 9:52 AM
    If your mother also does not currently have a will, she needs to put one in place now. This is particularly important if she wants to give more to her daughter to make up for her receiving nothing from her father, while her brother received over 200k.
    • Mtong
    • By Mtong 27th Aug 19, 1:45 PM
    • 10 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    Mtong
    • #9
    • 27th Aug 19, 1:45 PM
    • #9
    • 27th Aug 19, 1:45 PM
    Thank you Tom. Has anyone experience when seeing a solicitor, they'll say you need to speak to an accountant. Likewise, vice versa, when seeing an accountant - they tell you to seek Solicitor? Going around in circles? Is this something I can sort out rather than passed around - back on forth? Why

    My father passed away intestate, my mother currently has no will. From looking at other similar posts, it suggests I can apply for Letter for Administrator. But a question going forward what's the best way for the rental property? (Sorry for silly question if that is the case, am not thinking straight) Thank you.
    • Tom99
    • By Tom99 27th Aug 19, 3:06 PM
    • 4,788 Posts
    • 3,346 Thanks
    Tom99
    Thank you Tom. Has anyone experience when seeing a solicitor, they'll say you need to speak to an accountant. Likewise, vice versa, when seeing an accountant - they tell you to seek Solicitor? Going around in circles? Is this something I can sort out rather than passed around - back on forth? Why

    My father passed away intestate, my mother currently has no will. From looking at other similar posts, it suggests I can apply for Letter for Administrator. But a question going forward what's the best way for the rental property? (Sorry for silly question if that is the case, am not thinking straight) Thank you.
    Originally posted by Mtong
    So far the estate does not seem very complicated so there seems no reason why you would need a solicitor or accountant at this stage.
    It's not clear from your post whether you are the son who has inherited the rental property or the daughter?
    Probably your mother, sibling or you could apply for probate.
    Providing both properties were held as joint tenant, the rental property is now wholly owned by the son and he can apply to the Land Reg to have that updated, same with mother and the residence. Under the intestate rules of what's left the 1st 250,000 goes to mother and the amount above 250,000 is split 50% to mother and 50% to son/daughter.
    What was your query about the rental property?
    Last edited by Tom99; 27-08-2019 at 3:10 PM.
    • Mtong
    • By Mtong 29th Aug 19, 7:27 PM
    • 10 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    Mtong
    Hello Tom, thank you for your response. In summary:
    - Father and mother married with one son and one daughter.
    - Father passed away unexpectedly with no will. Mother no will either.
    - Two properties valued at 425k each: first, residence joint with father and mother. Second, rental property, jointly owned by father and brother.
    - Bank account with less than 500 in cash.
    - No gifts outside of his 3000 allowance in the last 7 years.
    - And travel air miles of the value of approximately 200.

    As I'm unsure of what documents, I just wanted to check that we have done everything correctly and not missed anything? I have completed the following forms (but yet to submit):
    a) Form PA1A: Probate application form or would it be a Letter of administration?
    b) Form IHT205: Return of estate form
    c) Self-assessment return for 2018/2019
    d) Form IHT402: Claim to transfer unused nil rate band
    e) HM Land registry application to remove from the register the name of a deceased joint proprietor.

    Query
    a) The residence, from previous reading, this automatically transfers to mother?
    b) The rental property was joint with my father and brother. How does this work? Is the 50% my brother and 50% mother, or the 100% to brother?
    But I am unsure if there is any IHT to pay.
    Would there / is there any IHT to pay?
    What else do I need to do / or if I have missed things / or misinterpreted incorrectly the understanding.
    c) Going forward, a will need to put in place for mother.
    d) Can I process these all myself or to have an accountant and solicitor. (I have spoken to an accountant who has asked me to speak to a solicitor, likewise having done so, solicitor says to speak to an accountant. So am passed around at the moment. Is this what happens in general?)

    Any help would be much appreciated as just want to make sure we have done everything by the book.

    Thank you
    Last edited by Mtong; 30-08-2019 at 12:29 PM.
    • Tom99
    • By Tom99 30th Aug 19, 2:46 AM
    • 4,788 Posts
    • 3,346 Thanks
    Tom99
    Hello Tom, thank you for your response. In summary:
    - Father and mother married with one son and one daughter.
    - Father passed away unexpectedly with no will. Mother no will either.
    - Two properties valued at 425k each: first, residence joint with father and mother. Second, rental property, jointly owned by father and brother.
    - Bank account with less than 500 in cash.
    - No gifts outside of his 3000 allowance in the last 7 years.
    - And travel air miles of the value of approximately 200.
    - I have refunded the pension and completed the tell-us-once service.

    As I'm unsure of what documents, I just wanted to check that we have done everything correctly and not missed anything? I have completed the following forms (but yet to submit):
    a) Form PA1A: Probate application form or would it be a Letter of administration?
    b) Form IHT205: Return of estate form
    c) Self-assessment return for 2018/2019
    d) Form IHT402: Claim to transfer unused nil rate band
    e) HM Land registry application to remove from the register the name of a deceased joint proprietor.

    Query
    a) The residence, from previous reading, this automatically transfers to mother?
    b) The rental property was joint with my father and brother. How does this work? Is the 50% my brother and 50% mother, or the 100% to brother?
    But I am unsure if there is any IHT to pay.
    Would there / is there any IHT to pay?
    What else do I need to do / or if I have missed things / or misinterpreted incorrectly the understanding.
    c) Going forward, a will need to put in place for mother.
    d) Can I process these all myself or to have an accountant and solicitor. (I have spoken to an accountant who has asked me to speak to a solicitor, likewise having done so, solicitor says to speak to an accountant. So am passed around at the moment. Is this what happens in general?)

    Any help would be much appreciated as just want to make sure we have done everything by the book.

    Thank you
    Originally posted by Mtong
    Since your mother is still alive? you don't need form IHT402 the transfer of the unused NRB is claimed on the 2nd death ie your mother's and using IHT217 if you are using IHT205.
    You need to check whether each house was held as joint tenants of tenants in common since above you have referred to both joint tenants and joint owners.
    Download both property titles for 3 each from here:
    https://eservices.landregistry.gov.uk/eservices/FindAProperty/view/QuickEnquiryInit.do
    Look at Part B The Proprietorship Register. Is there a restriction listed along the following lines:
    RESTRICTION: No disposition by a sole proprietor of the registered estate (except a trust corporation) under which capital money arises is to be registered unless authorised by an order of the court.
    If that restriction is present that the property was held as Tenants in Common and will pass according to the intestate rules.
    If the restriction is not there then that normally means the property was held as Joint Tenants and passes to the surviving owner automatically.
    Depending on those two answers will depend how the rental property is split.
    • getmore4less
    • By getmore4less 30th Aug 19, 5:27 AM
    • 37,185 Posts
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    getmore4less
    The rental property beneficial interest question(post #7) has not been answered.

    due to the values involved the IHT return(even if not sent to HMRC) is going to be the way to establish what is left of the nil rate bands.
    • Sea Shell
    • By Sea Shell 30th Aug 19, 7:07 AM
    • 2,389 Posts
    • 4,271 Thanks
    Sea Shell
    If your mother also does not currently have a will, she needs to put one in place now. This is particularly important if she wants to give more to her daughter to make up for her receiving nothing from her father, while her brother received over 200k.
    Originally posted by Keep pedalling
    Unless the Daughter has done something unforgivable to her parents, I hope that she doesn't get forgotten all this, and that some equality is eventually forthcoming. 200k v. 0 seems just a tad unfair.

    Obviously we don't know the family dynamics, and whether she's had other money in the past, but i'm sure most would agree under normal circumstances that's a pretty big imbalance on the fair chart!
    " That pound I saved yesterday, is a pound I don't have to earn tomorrow " JOB DONE!!
    This should now read "It's time to start digging up those Squirrelled Nuts"!!!
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