Loss at PIP Tribunal. What next?

Brummie85 · 21 September 2019 at 10:52PM

Hi All,

Last November my Mom was moved from DLA to PIP. She went through their assessment and magically went from being higher rate DLA (for 24 years!) to getting 0 points for PIP.

She really isn't well, both mentally and physically. The loss of money is causing her a lot of grief, she was working for a family member helping with admin a few hours a week but that also had to stop in January. Their business took a turn for the worse and they couldn't afford to keep her. It's harsh to say, but my Mom wasn't actually needed - It was a job out of sympathy and support if anything.

I've been helping her with the appeal process. DWP declined to change their minds after the mandatory reconsideration, so it ended up in a tribunal on Thursday.

I went along, but the judge made it clear I was to keep quiet. I get that - they need to hear from claimants and not their families. They didn't go over her whole statement, which I had to type up and prepare because my Mom doesn't seem capable of reading their paperwork and answering their criteria and questions on her own. Unfortunately she got into a bad state during the tribunal, wouldn't take a break and didn't do a good job of explaining how her disabilities impact her daily life, or how the assessment and comments made on their decision don't reflect her lack of abilities.

It was upsetting to watch. They told her they wouldn't take into consideration changes in her condition since, but were happy to quiz her about things like a recent birthday meal. It seems unfair to not consider her continued deterioration of health, but to ask about (and then use) what she can do when her family are around to support her. Most of the time we're not on hand due to the need to work and handle our own affairs. Without us she doesn't go anywhere unfamiliar or do anything new. But I knew she wasn't making this point effectively whilst she was talking, when I tried to explain to her what she'd been asked to answer the judge told me that I couldn't coach or prompt a reply. I was only trying to get her to tell them what she tells me, instead of what a nice day she had to celebrate turning 60.

She has a list of medical conditions and problems that is too long to mention. I know I'm biased, but the combined effect of them all is that she's simply not fit to work in the real world. Their decision came back today - they awarded her two points. Which is probably what they only actually went over. If they'd bothered to go through all 12 DWP marking areas - I'm confident that she'd get almost all of them (at least partially if not fully).

Following the tribunal loss. What's the next best thing to do?

atlantis187 · 21 September 2019 at 11:38PM

Feel sorry for u man
what an !!!! of a judge don't know who's worser the dwps so called medical asessors or this guy

Spoonie_Turtle · 21 September 2019 at 11:41PM

I'm saying this not from experience but based on much of what I've read of the case law of PIP: you can appeal. Much of the case law available to read is from Upper Tribunal judges setting aside the First-Tier Tribunal decision because they demonstrably 'erred in law' - basically they made the wrong decisions regarding descriptors or didn't go about thoroughly establishing the facts they needed or ignored evidence / gave inappropriate weight to various forms of evidence.

Quite how you go about appealing, I do not know, but it sounds like you probably should.

poppy12345 · 22 September 2019 at 8:40AM

The first thing you need to do is to request the statement of reasons and record of proceedings and you have 1 month from the date of the decision to request these.

There's no timescales for how long it will take to receive them but once she does you need to find someone to take a look to see if an error in law was made. If no error in law was made then i'm afraid she won't be able to take this any further.

You mention your mum not being able to work. PIP isn't about your ability to work, people claim PIP and work. PIP is about how your conditions affect your ability to carry out daily activities based on the PIP descriptors.

Having some understanding of the PIP descriptors and what they mean will help. So many people think they should have scored a certain amount of points but when they take a closer look and try to understand the descriptors they find it's not possible to score as many points as they first thought. Start here https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/personal-independence-payment-assessment-guide-for-assessment-providers/pip-assessment-guide-part-2-the-assessment-criteria

If that error in law is found the whole process could potentially take another year. If no error in law is found then she could start another claim but please be aware that using the same evidence and same approach that you previously used could very likely see another refusal.

I would definitely advise you to get some face to face advice from welfare rights, a law centre or your local CAB.

Alice_Holt · 22 September 2019 at 9:44AM

I would endorse the points made by poppy.

Her decision notice will explain how to request a Statement of Reasons (S of R).
An Upper Tribunal appeal to have the decision set aside has to be on an error of law made by the first tier tribunal (FTT). You will not succeed simply because you don't like the decision.

Also for an appeal to the UT to succeed, the error of law must be a material one - i.e. it must be such that it was capable of affecting the outcome of the appeal had the tribunal actually applied the law correctly. That will be difficult, starting from 2 points.

Your mum might be best served by applying again with the help of an advice agency / welfare rights organisation / Citizens Advice. If she needs to appeal, then that organisation may also be able to represent her at appeal. Be aware that once over 65, she cannot apply for PIP (it has to be AA).

There are quite a few good internet PIP resources. I would suggest doing some research, should she decide to re-apply.

Brummie85 · 22 September 2019 at 11:49AM

Alice_Holt wrote: »

I would endorse the points made by poppy.

Her decision notice will explain how to request a Statement of Reasons (S of R).
An Upper Tribunal appeal to have the decision set aside has to be on an error of law made by the first tier tribunal (FTT). You will not succeed simply because you don't like the decision.

Also for an appeal to the UT to succeed, the error of law must be a material one - i.e. it must be such that it was capable of affecting the outcome of the appeal had the tribunal actually applied the law correctly. That will be difficult, starting from 2 points.

Your mum might be best served by applying again with the help of an advice agency / welfare rights organisation / Citizens Advice. If she needs to appeal, then that organisation may also be able to represent her at appeal. Be aware that once over 65, she cannot apply for PIP (it has to be AA).

There are quite a few good internet PIP resources. I would suggest doing some research, should she decide to re-apply.

Thanks Poppy & Alice. I'll be telling her to ask for a Statement of Reasons. I do feel they made an error and didn't consider the whole range of criteria for her to be awarded points. But I don't know if this would be a breach of the law.

I know it's not about work - But they did focus on her last job though. She was in a state and I couldn't get her back on track to explain how her disabilities interfere with the tasks they mark against.

What's the opinion of the better route to go forward with? Appeal to the tribunal if possible or just get on with another application with support from an advice or welfare rights organisation?

NeilCr · 22 September 2019 at 12:13PM

Unless, there is something pretty obvious that warrants going to the UT, I'd start again. Particularly, as you have said that her condition has deteriorated since the original application

As usual I agree with Alice and Poppy - definitely about getting help with any new claim and to talk through the current situation, too

Nannytone · 22 September 2019 at 2:13PM

If your mum is on her own best representative, then it may be worth looking at becoming her appointee which would allow you to speak on her behalf

poppy12345 · 22 September 2019 at 7:34PM

A poorly presented case can often lead to refusal. You won't be able to appeal just because you think the decision is wrong.

I agree with NeilCr starting a new claim sounds like the way forward here because any worsening of condition will not be taken into consideration.

As for the appointee then if she's unable to manage her claim herself, including the money she receives from any benefits then yes consider becoming her appointee. If she can manage then no, you shouldn't consider becoming her appointee.

Becoming someone's appointee so you can speak on their behalf is not the reason why you should do this.

https://www.gov.uk/become-appointee-for-someone-claiming-benefits

Brummie85 · 23 September 2019 at 12:38AM

poppy12345 wrote: »

A poorly presented case can often lead to refusal. You won't be able to appeal just because you think the decision is wrong.

I agree with NeilCr starting a new claim sounds like the way forward here because any worsening of condition will not be taken into consideration.

As for the appointee then if she's unable to manage her claim herself, including the money she receives from any benefits then yes consider becoming her appointee. If she can manage then no, you shouldn't consider becoming her appointee. Becoming someone's appointee so you can speak on their behalf is not the reason why you should do this.

She was in touch with the Lisieux Trust. I think she's planning on going back to them this week and seeing what they advise. But in light of the changes to her health, I think they'd give the same advice of starting a fresh claim.

Now that she's been through it once and has seen the fairly shady standards and tactics they use to assess people to a point of receiving no further support - she may be better prepared for next time.

I don't want to become an appointee at this stage, nor do I think she needs me to. She isn't managing with the money she has, which isn't the same thing as being incapable of managing money. She simply doesn't have enough to meet her basic outgoings. I do help - but can't always. I've got a pay cut coming from work and it's going to make things tight. It makes me worry. She's saying she can't live like this and told the panel she'd contemplated suicide whilst I was sat next to her. We can't give her anywhere near enough to make up what she's lost from DLA and the few hours of work she did. I know we're not the only family having a hard time with relatives and PIP. Doesn't stop it from feeling any less rough.

Fire_Fox · 23 September 2019 at 5:53AM

What help and support is your mother getting from the NHS and other organisations (eg. charities) for her mental health? Do you have a local branch of MIND? Has she been referred to the NHS community mental health team? A community mental health nurse (CPN) can write a supporting statement for PIP.

Support workers from these organisations can help complete forms, go to unfamiliar places or cope with new situations, help action any debts, access funding for household appliances, furniture or essential repairs, and more. Cannot see why someone could not have a worker who focusses on the mental health side and another worker who focusses more on physical disabilities.

Staff from different organisations can communicate with one another to better support your mother if she gives consent. That can be hugely useful when applying for benefits inc. PIP or other funding streams, or if there are concerns over medication say. Would be worth reviewing and updating what the Lisieux Trust have on file.

Is your mother on Employment Support Allowance or equivalent? Is she actually 'signed off sick' by her family doctor? I ask because you suggested it was "biased" to think she cannot work. Her family doctor or a mental health professional certainly needs to know that your mother has felt suicidal recently.

Have you considered completing a full Statement of Affairs - see Debt Free Wannabe board - to see if her finances can be managed better for the time being?

HTH!

Loss at PIP Tribunal. What next?

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