Apple Pay in Asda/Lidl

Anthorn · 15 July 2018 at 10:50AM

takman wrote: »

If you want to be technically correct then you can say Passive RFID Contactless Pahments have a limit of £30 and NFC Contactless Payments are only limited by the retailer.
But this doesn't really help because not many people will know the technology behind them and shop staff won't be trained in this either.

Or we can say that the contactless upper limit is £30 and if Apple Pay being contactless allows more than that Apple Pay circumvents the contactless safeguard. That's exactly what I've said in previous posts in this thread.

In the event of fraud I wonder whether the bank will limit contactless compensation to £30 and whether in that case the retailer which allowed the greater amount will compensate the difference?

sheramber · 15 July 2018 at 10:59AM

venomx wrote: »

Been to Lidl this morning, they accept Apple Pay over £30 :T:beer::j

We regularly use it for over £30.

This week the assistant was adamant that it would not work over £30
While she argued with my husband pointed out that it had already gone through.

takman · 15 July 2018 at 11:05AM

Anthorn wrote: »

Or we can say that the contactless upper limit is £30 and if Apple Pay being contactless allows more than that Apple Pay circumvents the contactless safeguard. That's exactly what I've said in previous posts in this thread.

In the event of fraud I wonder whether the bank will limit contactless compensation to £30 and whether in that case the retailer which allowed the greater amount will compensate the difference?

I replied to this previously:

takman wrote: »

The £30 for contactless on cards is to prevent the bank having to pay out for fraud; it isn't for the consumers benefit because banks will refund any contactless payments reported as fraudulent without question.

Apple Pay (and similar) doesn't "circumvent" the limit it simply has a different limit because it operates in a different way (security wise).
On my phone i have to unlock it (with my fingerprint) to make a contactless payment of ANY amount. This means it is more secure than even chip and pin because no matter what methods they use they can not make a record of my fingerprint (while making a payment) to fraudulently make payments using my phone.
Compared to chip and pin where it's possible to see someones pin, steal their card and use it.

I really don't understand why you seem to think it's "circumventing safeguards". The Passive RFID Contactless "safeguard" is a £30 limit,
NFC Contactless safeguard is a fingerprint/password/pin on the phone and the Chip and Pin Safeguard is a 4 digit pin.

If you have a problem with Apple Pay/Google Pay etc then you must also have a problem with Chip and Pin because the pin is arguably less secure than a payment on a phone.

You seem to have some illogical dislike of mobile device payments and you justify this with some wooly explanation about "Circumventing Safeguards".

Anthorn · 15 July 2018 at 5:52PM

takman wrote: »

I replied to this previously:

I really don't understand why you seem to think it's "circumventing safeguards". The Passive RFID Contactless "safeguard" is a £30 limit,
NFC Contactless safeguard is a fingerprint/password/pin on the phone and the Chip and Pin Safeguard is a 4 digit pin.

If you have a problem with Apple Pay/Google Pay etc then you must also have a problem with Chip and Pin because the pin is arguably less secure than a payment on a phone.

You seem to have some illogical dislike of mobile device payments and you justify this with some wooly explanation about "Circumventing Safeguards".

Except that when we use Apple Pay we don't use the PIN in the sense of chip and pin. In fact what is used is the CVV 3 digits usually the last three digits on the signature strip. It is that CVV which is entered into the wallet when a card is registered.

I just don't know why you keep on referring to chip and pin being used by Apple Pay when it isn't used. I can only conclude that you have never used Apple Pay and therefore don't know about it at all.

Let's put this one to bed if only for the sake of sanity: Apple Pay does not use chip & pin.

takman · 16 July 2018 at 12:24AM

Anthorn wrote: »

Except that when we use Apple Pay we don't use the PIN in the sense of chip and pin. In fact what is used is the CVV 3 digits usually the last three digits on the signature strip. It is that CVV which is entered into the wallet when a card is registered.

I just don't know why you keep on referring to chip and pin being used by Apple Pay when it isn't used. I can only conclude that you have never used Apple Pay and therefore don't know about it at all.

Let's put this one to bed if only for the sake of sanity: Apple Pay does not use chip & pin.

You seem to have completely misunderstood my post.

When you use Apple Pay (or similar) you have to unlock the device using either a pin/password/fingerprint. You have to do that EVERY time you make a payment so that is your security.

I then compared this to the security of Contactless Payments which is limited by a £30 max spend and guarantee by the bank.

I also compared this to Chip and Pin where the security is a 4 digit pin to make a payment.
I never said Apple Pay uses Chip and Pin I was comparing the diffrent payment methods and showing you that Apply Pay (or similar) actually has arguably more security than Chip and Pin payments; therefore you saying it 'circumvents Contactless safeguards" is nonsense.

Anthorn · 16 July 2018 at 7:35AM

takman wrote: »

You seem to have completely misunderstood my post.

When you use Apple Pay (or similar) you have to unlock the device using either a pin/password/fingerprint. You have to do that EVERY time you make a payment so that is your security.

I then compared this to the security of Contactless Payments which is limited by a £30 max spend and guarantee by the bank.

I also compared this to Chip and Pin where the security is a 4 digit pin to make a payment.
I never said Apple Pay uses Chip and Pin I was comparing the diffrent payment methods and showing you that Apply Pay (or similar) actually has arguably more security than Chip and Pin payments; therefore you saying it 'circumvents Contactless safeguards" is nonsense.

And to that I replied that in that case Apple Pay is only as secure as the mobile device.

I know how Apple Pay works because I use it several times a day almost every day. Apple Pay is primarily a contactless payment and that FACT is pointed out on till receipts.I look now at my Iceland till receipt from yesterday and it says, "No cardholder verification. Debit MasterCard" because I used Apple Pay linked to my Starling Bank Debit MasterCard.

The upper limit for contactless which at this time is £30 is set by card processors, i.e. VISA, MasterCard by agreement with the banks which authorise Apple Pay. If a mobile payments system or indeed any payment system allows more than the upper limit set by the payment processors then it is obviously circumventing that upper limit. Therefore that's not in any way, shape or form "nonsense".

Lastly Apple Pay does not use chip and pin to verify payments so stop referring to chip and pin in the context of Apple Pay. btw Google Pay doesn't use chip and pin either!

takman · 16 July 2018 at 9:58AM

Anthorn wrote: »

And to that I replied that in that case Apple Pay is only as secure as the mobile device.

I know how Apple Pay works because I use it several times a day almost every day. Apple Pay is primarily a contactless payment and that FACT is pointed out on till receipts.I look now at my Iceland till receipt from yesterday and it says, "No cardholder verification. Debit MasterCard" because I used Apple Pay linked to my Starling Bank Debit MasterCard.

The upper limit for contactless which at this time is £30 is set by card processors, i.e. VISA, MasterCard by agreement with the banks which authorise Apple Pay. If a mobile payments system or indeed any payment system allows more than the upper limit set by the payment processors then it is obviously circumventing that upper limit. Therefore that's not in any way, shape or form "nonsense".

If you want to continue to think that Apple Pay works exactly the same as Contactless that's up to you. I have explained how they are different and if you are unable to understand then we are just going to go round in circles.
If you decide to post a logical reply to my post i will reply but otherwise there is no point.

Anthorn wrote: »

Lastly Apple Pay does not use chip and pin to verify payments so stop referring to chip and pin in the context of Apple Pay. btw Google Pay doesn't use chip and pin either!

So you seriously don't understand what a comparison is? :rotfl:

I don't know if you just acting silly on purpose because it's obvious to anyone with even a basic grasp of the English langue that i'm comparing the different types of payments in my posts.

Anthorn · 16 July 2018 at 1:50PM

takman wrote: »

If you want to continue to think that Apple Pay works exactly the same as Contactless that's up to you. I have explained how they are different and if you are unable to understand then we are just going to go round in circles.
If you decide to post a logical reply to my post i will reply but otherwise there is no point.

Apple Pay IS the same as contactless. It's not any different at all. That is for mobile payments at least. If you have a MAC then it isn't contactless but it still doesn't use chip and chip even in the case of web site payments. Ok I go into a store and choose my products and then to pay I hold my iPhone 7 over a contactless terminal and lo and behold I pay. That IS a contactless payment!

takman wrote: »

So you seriously don't understand what a comparison is? :rotfl:

I don't know if you just acting silly on purpose because it's obvious to anyone with even a basic grasp of the English langue that i'm comparing the different types of payments in my posts.

The major problem is that you keep on referring to chip and pin in the context of Apple Pay and not only that you equate the PIN (or fingerprint or face recognition) used to unlock a mobile device with chip and pin. It's not chip and pin and is not in any way similar to chip and pin!

Westie983 · 16 July 2018 at 2:26PM

I have used apple pay for over £30 but not able to use my debit card for over £30 due to the contactless limit, so there must be a difference between the two payment methods.

that said can we say enough now, Takman, Anthorn as this is a silly argument, you have both said your points of view and you are going around the houses.

Lets just leave it here, and agree to disagree on each others points of view.

Westie983

colsten · 16 July 2018 at 7:23PM

Westie983 wrote: »

I have used apple pay for over £30 but not able to use my debit card for over £30 due to the contactless limit, so there must be a difference between the two payment methods.

Agreed. I use ApplePay, on my watch, for over £30 all the time, often for 3-digit amounts, and sometimes even 4-digit ones. Most goes against a Nationwide Credit card, but I also sometimes pay with Santander debit, Barclaycard CC, or M&S CC. The retailers vary from big ones (Boots, Waitrose, M&S, Lidl, Morrisons, Trainline, iTunes, Apple store) to SMEs (hairdresser, independent pub/restaurant, mobile podiatrist,garden centre, window cleaner, farm shop, mobile fish monger). Clearly it's no accident that they all accept more than £30 on ApplePay whilst their contactless card limit remains at £30. I have no concerns about security and can't wait for the day when all retailers lift their limits for ApplePay so I can finally leave all my cards at home.

Westie983 wrote: »

that said can we say enough now, Takman, Anthorn as this is a silly argument, you have both said your points of view and you are going around the houses.

Lets just leave it here, and agree to disagree on each others points of view.

Agree again. But I have to say, Takman makes more sense.

Apple Pay in Asda/Lidl

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