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  • Taz9
    • #2
    • 24th Feb 13, 12:24 PM
    Emirates claim 'extraordinary circumstance'
    • #2
    • 24th Feb 13, 12:24 PM
    I did post a thread in the 'general' board, and got a couple of replies. I have had some more feedback fromthe airline and hence I am re-posting it here with additional infor. Hope someone will be kind enough to help...
    Our family of five was delayed by over five and a half hours flying from Manchester to Dubai in 2011, we missed our connecting Emirates flight from Dubai to Mumbai and were put on the next flight. However, after reading this forum when we wrote to Emirates to claim for the delayed flight, this is the reply they sent:
    "
    Passengers are now able to claim for compensation for delayed flights from the UK where the delay to their arrival is more than three hours and if the delay was not due to extraordinary circumstances which were beyond an airline’s control.

    A review of your case shows that you were travelling on flight EK022 from Manchester to Dubai on 29th May 2011.

    The incoming aircraft operating flight EK developed a technical fault with the hydraulic system and for safety reasons it was necessary for us to rectify this fault before departure.

    These circumstances were completely unforeseen and totally beyond our control. They could not have been avoided and all reasonable measures were taken. They are considered to be extraordinary and therefore EU compensation does not apply on this occasion.

    I trust this clarifies Emirates position. "

    Is there stand justified?
    Is it legally true wjhat they are aying?
    Where do I stand in this matter now?

    Any help will be very much appreciated,
    Thanks,

    I was advised to write back to Emirates stating about the case (Case C-22/11 Finnair Oyj v Timy Lassooy), and secondly the regulations require the airline to use an alternative plane if yours is broken (Case Xa ZR 15/10 ).

    They wrote back stating this:
    Thank you for your e-mail.
    Whilst I regret that you are unhappy with our response, I would like to assure you that your file has been fully investigated and reviewed.
    I am sorry that you remain disappointed with our final position and if we have been unable to bring this matter to a totally amicable conclusion on this occasion.
    Yours sincerely,

    Customer Affairs Manager UK & Ireland.

    What options do I have now? I have been asked to 'sue'. I also see in the forums - advice to write to CAA.

    Shall I just write to CAA and wait for their decision (6 monts), or do I need to claim/sue Emirates some other way (wouldnt this require me hiring a solicitor?)

    Thanks and any help whatsoever will be very much appreciated.

    PS: A point also to note... we were on a 0940 flight, which is claimed to be delayed due to incoming flight issues. The 1240 flight got going on its right time without any delay and our flight didnt leave till 1450hrs.
    • richardw
    • By richardw 24th Feb 13, 1:51 PM
    • 19,061 Posts
    • 8,044 Thanks
    richardw
    • #3
    • 24th Feb 13, 1:51 PM
    • #3
    • 24th Feb 13, 1:51 PM
    Perhaps start the legal process.
    Posts are not advice and must not be relied upon.
  • Taz9
    • #4
    • 24th Feb 13, 2:04 PM
    • #4
    • 24th Feb 13, 2:04 PM
    Perhaps start the legal process.
    Originally posted by richardw
    How to do this exactly? Appoint a lawyer? Start with writing to CAA? or BOTH?
    Wouldnt going through the lawyer route cost a lot?
    • 111KAB
    • By 111KAB 24th Feb 13, 2:39 PM
    • 3,640 Posts
    • 1,479 Thanks
    111KAB
    • #5
    • 24th Feb 13, 2:39 PM
    • #5
    • 24th Feb 13, 2:39 PM
    How to do this exactly? Appoint a lawyer? Start with writing to CAA? or BOTH?
    Wouldnt going through the lawyer route cost a lot?
    Originally posted by Taz9
    If you feel confident to undertake yourself there are plenty of links in FAQ to assist - if not go to a no win/no fee firm and recover around 70% of the debt. You can write to the CAA - no harm done if you do and their response may assist your thoughts on which route to go down.
  • DWayneLove
    • #6
    • 23rd Mar 13, 8:20 AM
    Etihad update
    • #6
    • 23rd Mar 13, 8:20 AM
    Having previously posted the details of our claim in the main, now huge forum, this now seems like the appropriate place for an update.
    We had a 20 hour delay from Manchester to Abu Dhabi with Etihad in October 2010. When we made our claim under EU261 in November 2012, Etihad cited their 2 year time limit T&Cs several times. Naturally we pointed out their error under law, but to no avail.
    We then referred our complaint to the CAA, who in turn pointed out to Etihad that they are in fact subject to the 6 year time limit applicable to UK delayed departures. Etihad have now emailed me, appearing to concede this point, but now requesting proof that we were indeed on the delayed flight. This proof has been supplied, so we are now awaiting their next excuse!
    If anyone else has had any dealings with Etihad, we would be very interested to hear of their progress.
    Thanks as always to the regular contributors to these forums - their help is invaluable.
  • Ich
    • #7
    • 29th Mar 13, 11:25 PM
    • #7
    • 29th Mar 13, 11:25 PM
    Moving up to page1
    • Billy Bonkers
    • By Billy Bonkers 9th Apr 13, 11:37 AM
    • 41 Posts
    • 12 Thanks
    Billy Bonkers
    • #8
    • 9th Apr 13, 11:37 AM
    • #8
    • 9th Apr 13, 11:37 AM
    Although this question is about an Etihad flight, the answer will, me thinks, apply to all airlines.

    Ticket was Manchester - Bangkok with an Abu Dhabi (AUH) connection.

    Flight departing MAN was delayed 3hrs 50 mins arriving AUH 3hrs 10mins late. There was originally a 3.5 hr connection time. We were just able to make the connecting flight (which was being held if necessary as there were quite a few of us for it) which then arrived in BKK bang on scheduled time.

    Is compo payable for the delayed sector?
    • keith160377
    • By keith160377 9th Apr 13, 5:17 PM
    • 8 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    keith160377
    • #9
    • 9th Apr 13, 5:17 PM
    • #9
    • 9th Apr 13, 5:17 PM
    Hi there, I was wondering if perhaps I would have any grounds for compensation from Continental Airlines. Here is what happened (Really sorry it is a long story):-

    I traveled from Manchester to Mexico on 12th July 2008 but had to change in Newark and Dallas in order to get there. The plane would arrive at 14:15 in the afternoon and my connecting flight to Dallas would be at 16:35. I arrived at 14:10, but the queue for Immigration was huge. I was told that a representative would come and assist me in order to get through Immigration and get my connecting flight, but no body came. It was 15:45 by the time I got through Immigration and was looking for my connecting flight.

    I went to the travel desk and told the representative that I was looking for the connection and was told:

    'Sorry, you can't get on that flight now, you needed to be earlier to check in.' Even though I had 3 boarding passes, which I assumed that I was already checked in.

    I was told that there was not a flight until the next morning (05:30am) and that she would re-book the tickets. I said to her,

    'What am I supposed to do? I've got nowhere to stay.'

    She was able to get me some Holiday Inn vouchers so that i could get something to eat and to stay the night, which was fine.

    The next morning (02:45am), I turned up to check into my flight for Dallas, to be told "Your reservation was changed, but the person did not reserve your seats," "Unfortunately there is no space on the plane and you will have to wait until 19:00 to get the next flight."

    I think you can imagine how I felt. The guy finally managed to get me onto the flight, but was a very stressful time.

    At this time, I was wondering if anyone here, thinks that I may be entitled to compensation due to the disruption and if so, can you please tell me how I would go about it?

    Apologies for the long story, but would like to thank in advance if anyone can help me with this.

    Regards

    Keith
    On DMP Program with Step Change
    Original Debt: £6,000 (August 2012)
    Current Debt:
    £3,900 (April 2013)
    Est Completion date (August 2015)


    • Caz3121
    • By Caz3121 9th Apr 13, 5:25 PM
    • 12,496 Posts
    • 8,140 Thanks
    Caz3121
    The plane would arrive at 14:15 in the afternoon and my connecting flight to Dallas would be at 16:35. I arrived at 14:10, but the queue for Immigration was huge.



    At this time, I was wondering if anyone here, thinks that I may be entitled to compensation due to the disruption and if so, can you please tell me how I would go about it?
    Originally posted by keith160377
    Given that your flight arrived on time/early and the immigration queue is something completely out of the airlines control then EU261 does not apply

    You could try writing a complaint re the issue with the rebooking that ended up with a subsequent delay and you may get some frequent flyer miles as an apology

    If you held a confirmed booking on the 05:30 flight and were denied boarding you may be due some compensation (not related to EU261 which will not apply) there may be some information on the airlines website with regards 'denied boarding'

    added: this is from the United site http://www.united.com/web/format/pdf/travel/destination/international/ua_eu_denied_policy_rev.20120303.pdf
    RIGHT TO COMPENSATION. If you are involuntarily denied boarding or your flight is cancelled, you are entitled to receive €600 in compensation from
    us.


    ....this is based on you having held a confirmed booking for the flight
    Last edited by Caz3121; 09-04-2013 at 5:31 PM.
    • Mark2spark
    • By Mark2spark 10th Apr 13, 12:07 AM
    • 2,285 Posts
    • 876 Thanks
    Mark2spark
    I agree with Caz and Centipede, pain in the backside though it certainly was.
  • cjj77
    I wondered if you could help with our case that we have taken up with Air Mauritius following issues with the cancelled departure of our scheduled flight from London Heathrow on Sunday 14th October 2012 at 5pm to Mauritius for our honeymoon, which following a number of false starts, was rearranged and finally departed at 11pm on Monday 15th October 2012, some 30 hours late.

    In summary, the sequence of events unfolded as follows:

    · Depart for Heathrow following online check in from home with no indication of any issues with the flight.
    · Arrive at Heathrow and go through all checks, again no indication of any issues.
    · Await gate information sign displayed at designated boarding time.
    · Call to attend Alitalia (Air Mauritius Heathrow representatives) information point at approx. 16.15 to be advised of an approximate 4 hour delay.
    · Approximately five minutes later, call that the flight has been cancelled and we are to collect our baggage and we would be put up in a hotel overnight.
    · On arrival at hotel we are advised that we are to reassemble at 10:00 as the aircraft should be ready for departure at this time following overnight repair with a part being flown in from Paris.
    · On checking at breakfast we are told that the aircraft could not be fixed and a replacement aircraft is currently en route from Mauritius to collect us and will depart at 23:00.
    · Replacement flight leaves at 23:00 – 30 hours late.

    Discussions that I had with an Air Mauritius representative at the hotel indicated that the story was actually more than had been indicated.

    We were originally due to depart Sunday afternoon. There had also been a Saturday afternoon flight scheduled on the 13th October. This aircraft was forced to turn back to the terminal following push back as a fault was noted on one of the engines and the flight delayed and aircraft grounded.

    These passengers were subsequently put onto the next incoming aircraft which was the aircraft that we were due to fly out on, thus leaving the grounded aircraft at Heathrow in the hope that it could be repaired prior to our scheduled flight time – which clearly it couldn’t be. This means that the airline knew of the issue some 24 hours in advance of our departure time.

    We have tried to follow the advice offered by those in the know on here and started with a letter to the airline stating our case giving them the requisite 14 days to respond. To their credit they did respond within the timescales stating that due to “unforeseen technical problems” that in this instance they were not liable to pay any compensation.

    Our understanding of recent case law laid down as recently as October 2012, is that airlines are unable to rely on this as a valid means of defence unless they can prove that it was a specific issue that would not normally be expected in the course of then normal operation of the airline.

    We therefore wrote again to the airline asking them to confirm what the specific issue had been that had caused the cancellation and again gave them 14 days to respond before we sought to further this matter through either the CAA in the first instance or the small claims courts.

    This letter was sent prior to Christmas and there was no response. To that end, we sought advice from the CAA in January 2013. The CAA concluded their investigation earlier this week and concluded that in this instance, with the information provided by the airline, that there was no right to compensation due to “extraordinary circumstances”.

    Obviously we were hoping for something more positive from the CAA and we were prepared to take this forward ourselves if this had been the case. However, with this conclusion what would you recommend?

    Can we push Air Mauritius to disclose the actual fault?

    Would it now be more prudent in this case to approach a ‘no win/no fee’ solicitor’?

    Hopefully you will be able to assist, or advise how we could move this further forward.

    Many thanks.
    • Vauban
    • By Vauban 24th Apr 13, 7:09 AM
    • 4,729 Posts
    • 2,094 Thanks
    Vauban
    Your main issue is that AM has no UK office at which service and enforcement of legal claims or enforcement action may be taken.

    Secondly, although on the face of it, you have a good case as the delay appears to have been caused by a technical issue, the CAA has stated otherwise.

    IMO even if you could get this into court, you may face an uphill battle to convince a judge of your claim.

    You would be best advised to try a no win no fee solicitor as if they think you have a good case and believe thay can recover the money for you, that would be the best outcome for you. They may say that this is going to be too difficult or not worth their efforts so be guided by what they say.
    Originally posted by Centipede100
    Parking the issue of enforcement for the moment, isn't the OP's case quite strong? First, it is a technical fault with the plane. Second, the plane with the fault was not the OP's, but rather the OP's plane was used to substitute the other faulty plane. Surely this is an operational issue for the airline, not an extraordinary circumstance?

    Or is the fact that the CAA has ruled against the claim the most difficult point here? And does that suggest that the CAA is not an ally for passengers seeking legal redress? And indeed that writing to them could damage your prospects of success?
    • Vauban
    • By Vauban 24th Apr 13, 8:51 AM
    • 4,729 Posts
    • 2,094 Thanks
    Vauban
    I did state that I thought the OP had a good case! But the combination of the CAA statement and the question of service and enforcement of any claim led to my considered advice to seek out a no win no fee solicitor for at least their take on whether this is likely to be successful or not for the OP.
    Originally posted by Centipede100
    Indeed - and I take these points. But to reiterate my main concern: if the CAA judge that a technical failure with another aircraft (not the one scheduled for your own flight) is "extraordinary circumstances", what does this say about the manner in which the CAA are approaching this issue - and the risks of engaging them?
  • Ich
    But to reiterate my main concern: if the CAA judge that a technical failure with another aircraft (not the one scheduled for your own flight) is "extraordinary circumstances", what does this say about the manner in which the CAA are approaching this issue - and the risks of engaging them?
    Or it might actually be that the CAA and the airlines are correct in tiese matters having taken legal advice (and in the case of the CAA consulting other bodies) and that unfortunately views seen on here are incorrect!
    It is of no matter to myself but if folk start losing cases they may be unhappy with some of the advice given even though it was in good faith
  • cjj77
    Thanks to Centipede100, Vauban & Ich for your views.

    What I can't quite get my head around is that the CAA did acknowledge the technical fault caused the cancellation but that this was classed as extraordinary circumstances. My understading after much reading (and head scratching) is that this cannot be relied on by an airline as a means to escape a compensation claim.

    However, without the actual information from AM as to what this problem was it is very difficult to know if this is indeed a valid argument on their behalf.

    The CAA state that they are unable to share the information received from AM, and whereas I can to a point understand this, how can you out together a potential legal challenge when you don't have all the information to hand?

    If the AM claim is indeed valid, and the airline and CAA are correct in their assertions, then I would not hesitate to back off and accept the decision. However as a result of the aircraft being diagnosed with this fault some 24 hours prior to our own aircrafts intended departure leaves somewhat of a bitter taste in my mouth in that we suffered a 30 hour delay as a result of this.
  • stoneyard
    Emirates
    Hi All

    Would appreciate your views on this. I was booked LHR-DXB-JNB and because of a 2 1/2 hour late start in UK, missed my connecting flight to South Africa meaning I was 6 hours late overall.

    I contacted Emirates with appropriate wording and they have now responded with

    "....The departure of flight EK030 was delayed by two hours and thirty eight minutes for operational reasons. Flight EK030 arrived in Dubai at 05.10 hours which was two hours and twenty minutes 24 minutes later than scheduled. It is unfortunate that this caused you to misconnect with your onward flight to Johannesburg.



    Nevertheless, as the delay to your arrival in Dubai was less than three hours, EU compensation does not apply.



    For further clarification to avoid any doubt, your departing flight from Dubai to Johannesburg, has no connection with the EU and does not involve an EU carrier and is therefore not governed by EU regulations. "


    As you can see, there is no hiding behind "exceptional circumstances"

    I thought that because I had a single end to end booking the EU rules applied for the whole not just the first segment.

    Thanks in anticipation.
    • purplelemon
    • By purplelemon 10th May 13, 4:38 PM
    • 18 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    purplelemon
    Claim Against Icelandair - Claim Time Limit?
    On the 23rd October 2010 my Heathrow to Reykjavik, Iceland flight was delayed by 10 hours.

    I've written to Icelandair to claim, but they are stating that I'm too late:
    According to Icelandic Civil Aviation Law, passengers must initiate a claim for compensation not more than 2 years from the date of travel.
    I told them that the rules state I can claim back to Feb 2005, but they replied:
    You are here referring to the Sturgeon rule, which only applies if a passenger had made a claim to the carrier and had been denied compensation. If this is the case, then the passenger can request an appeal of the denial.
    So I'm a bit confused, as Iceland isn't in the EU. Should they be going by EU rules regarding the time limit because the flight departed in the UK? Or as an Icelandic airline can they use the time limit from their Icelandic rules?

    Any advice on how to respond would be much appreciated!
  • stoneyard
    Thanks Centipede, was just composing e-mail to emirates with the link.

    Will update the thread with next installment.

    I have now had response back from Emirates

    My email......

    Dear Ms xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

    Thank you for your reply.

    However, I do not agree with your conclusion.

    Under Case C 11/11,REQUEST for a preliminary ruling under Article 267 TFFEU, from the Bundesgerichtshof (Germany), made by decision of 9 December 2010, received at the Court on 11 January 2011, I am allowed full compensation for the end to end trip, not just the first segment.

    From the ruling.

    37 If follows that the fixed compensation to which a passenger is entitled under Article 7 of Regulation No 261/2004, when his flight reaches the final destination three hours or more after the scheduled arrival time, is not dependent on the conditions laid down in Article 6 of that regulation being met.

    LINK REMOVED TO CASE



    Emirates response

    Dear xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

    Thank you for your e-mail.

    Whilst I regret that you are unhappy with our response, I would like to assure you that your file has been fully investigated.

    I am sorry that you remain disappointed with our final position and if we have been unable to bring this matter to a totally amicable conclusion on this occasion.

    Yours sincerely,


    What are my next steps? Write CAA or go legal? i am pushing this because I lost a days work as a result of the delay.
    Last edited by stoneyard; 15-05-2013 at 10:10 AM. Reason: updated
    • Liberty1577
    • By Liberty1577 19th Jun 13, 4:57 PM
    • 81 Posts
    • 45 Thanks
    Liberty1577
    Etihad
    Having previously posted the details of our claim in the main, now huge forum, this now seems like the appropriate place for an update.
    We had a 20 hour delay from Manchester to Abu Dhabi with Etihad in October 2010. When we made our claim under EU261 in November 2012, Etihad cited their 2 year time limit T&Cs several times. Naturally we pointed out their error under law, but to no avail.
    We then referred our complaint to the CAA, who in turn pointed out to Etihad that they are in fact subject to the 6 year time limit applicable to UK delayed departures. Etihad have now emailed me, appearing to concede this point, but now requesting proof that we were indeed on the delayed flight. This proof has been supplied, so we are now awaiting their next excuse!
    If anyone else has had any dealings with Etihad, we would be very interested to hear of their progress.

    Thanks as always to the regular contributors to these forums - their help is invaluable.
    Originally posted by DWayneLove
    Any further update? I'm currently dealing with etihad and have not read of anyone having a success with them. Hoping you did?
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