Your browser isn't supported
It looks like you're using an old web browser. To get the most out of the site and to ensure guides display correctly, we suggest upgrading your browser now. Download the latest:

Welcome to the MSE Forums

We're home to a fantastic community of MoneySavers but anyone can post. Please exercise caution & report spam, illegal, offensive or libellous posts/messages: click "report" or email forumteam@.

Search
Page 3
  • vvkmft2001
    Hello, Need your help here. I travelled from Manchester to Bangalore on 4th Nov 2011 in Air France. Below is the information derived from Flightstats.

    06.50 MAN to 08.50 Paris - Flight was on time.
    Connecting flight - 10.35Am Paris to Bangalore - Flight was delayed to 12.11pm but still we were put in a hotel till next day.

    Can I claim for me being made to stay in Paris for a day and if yes, by how much?

    Thanks.
  • 2sides2everystory
    Just thought I would log back in to advise how the journey from Barcelona ended 3 days ago (last post #50). After a lot of hassle with me several times banging heads with Cygnific on the phone and the travellers themselves encouraging SAS representatives in Brussels (no KLM desk there?) to swap the final SAS flight on the re-route to an airport closer to home, we finally got them home indoors approximately 5 hours after they originally expected rather than 6 or 7 hours later than expected.

    We are not actually planning to claim against KLM on this one as ultimately we were quite pleased with ourselves in managing to change the re-route (the final destination) to suit us better, but for the sake of general understanding, do we think it qualifies as a valid EU 261 claim for 250 euros per person?
  • 2sides2everystory
    Not if the initial delay was due to snow at AMS
    Originally posted by Centipede100
    Well as per MissBailey above, it couldn't easily be argued that it was AMS snow, especially as I think that the aircraft operating KL1672 originated in AMS as KL1671 and according to flightstats, that landed in Barcelona on time! Does flightstats keep a note of the aircraft registrations? I know that flightradar24.com does - and so I have established that 737 PH-BXF was indeed the aircraft used for both flights!

    KL1672 ultimately took off 76 minutes late last Thursday - we don't know exactly why but we do know that it was not because the aircraft itself was delayed arriving at BCN!

    KLM had nevertheless foreseen that the connecting flight would be missed and pulled my friends off it. They were indeed told that it was because of snow at AMS!

    I think we have reason to believe that airlines are currently engaged in a great deal of fraud in evading their legal obligation to accept delay claims. There is no nicer way of putting it and indeed we should not be nice !
    Last edited by 2sides2everystory; 18-02-2013 at 2:42 PM.
  • vvkmft2001
    Flights - Air france
    ***************CENTIPEDE 100 SUGGESTION PLEASE"""""""""""""""""""""
    Hello, Need your help here. I travelled from Manchester to Bangalore on 4th Nov 2011 in Air France. Below is the information derived from Flightstats.

    06.50 MAN to 08.50 Paris - Flight was on time.
    Connecting flight - 10.35Am Paris to Bangalore - Flight was delayed to 12.11pm but still we were put in a hotel till next day 10.35AM flight.

    Can I claim for me being made to stay in Paris for a day and if yes, by how much?

    Thanks.
  • 2sides2everystory
    With vvkmft2001' s last post, is this beginning to sound like the AirFrance/KLM connecting flight experience - i.e. they don't know their a$$ from their elbow?

    We have just discovered, after my friends on Thursday were pulled off a flight which ultimately left 76 minutes late and were put on a circuitous route that got them home about 5 hours late, that if they had been left on the original routing they would have arrived just 146 minutes late!

    Do KLM actually have a clue about connecting flights any longer or do they see it as an opportunity to have a laugh on us?

    Despite suggesting otherwise earlier in the thread, I feel a claim coming on now not for borderline unforeseen circumstances but for a complete and utter b@lls up!
  • vvkmft2001
    Air France Delay
    Thanks for your reply.

    It was one booking and below was the schedule:

    Manchester to Paris: (Air France operated by Flybe)
    Departing: 06:15 Fri 4 Nov 2011
    Arriving: 08:50 Fri 4 Nov 2011

    Paris - Bangalore (Air France)
    Departing: 10:35 Fri 4 Nov 2011
    Arriving: 00:25 Sat 5 Nov 2011 Next day arrival

    The flight from Manchester departed 45 mins late and so was told that I had missed the connection flight on arrival at Paris. We were given accommodation with food at Paris for the day and I had to take the next day's flight (since only one AF flight a day to Bangalore from Paris).

    I checked flight stats before posting this and it says, my flight to Paris was on time (4 mins late) and the flight from Paris was also delayed (the one I missed) by 2 hours. Not sure why its saying different.

    But in any case, it was one booking and I had to miss the connection due to delay at Manchester (and thats what the airline told me at that time) and had one day stay at Paris.

    So can you please suggest next steps?

    More details please?

    Are you saying that despite arriving in CDG ontime for your connecting flight due to depart at 10.35am (which was itself delayed until 12.11pm the same day, that you were put on the following day's flight instead?

    What was the airline's reason at the time? Did they pay for your hotel/meals whilst waiting for the next day's flight? Was this all on one single reservation or were the flights booked separately?
    Originally posted by Centipede100
  • vvkmft2001
    Air France Delay
    Centipede,

    Thanks for your suggestion and I will proceed with the claim with Flybe.

    Will keep everyone posted on how the claim process goes.




    Make your claim for delay compensation from Flybe since they were the operating carrier who so delayed your arrival into CDG that you missed your connecting flight. The compensation is 600 euros per passenger.
    Originally posted by Centipede100
  • val Burden
    aFTER A 7 HOUR DELAY AND COMPLETING ALL RELEVANT FORMS THIS WAS THE REPLY FROM MONAR
    Thank you for taking the time to contact us in respect of your flight.



    I am sorry to learn of the disappointment that prompted your
    correspondence. Providing our passengers with safe and efficient
    service is our first priority. I would like to reassure you that every
    reasonable effort is made to ensure the flights depart on time and in
    the unlikely event we are unable to do so, we aim to get you to your
    destination at the earliest opportunity. That said, our ability to keep
    disruption to a minimum is always dependant on the resources available
    to us on the day.



    In some circumstances, passengers may be entitled to compensation under
    European Union laws. However, any monetary payments are subject to
    certain criteria being satisfied. Where the disruption is caused by an
    'extraordinary circumstance' which the airline was reasonably unable to
    prevent, the carrier is not obliged to pay compensation. Extraordinary
    circumstances have been defined by the courts and the European
    Regulations themselves provide a non-exhaustive list of which
    circumstances can indeed be categorised as extraordinary.



    Our records show that the aircraft scheduled to operate your flight
    suffered damage to an engine C-duct gas generator fairing. The aircraft
    was therefore declared unserviceable and unsafe to operate your flight
    until the necessary rectification had been completed. As a consequence
    and in order to reduce the length of your delay, passengers were
    transferred to the first available aircraft from within the Monarch
    fleet. This replacement aircraft had a smaller seating configuration
    and it was necessary therefore for a number of passengers to travel on
    alternative flights. Unfortunately, despite Monarch's best efforts
    there was no availability to transfer your flight to an aircraft
    chartered from a third party operator.



    Having considered the factual background of this incident, I am
    satisfied that this was indeed an extraordinary circumstance that could
    not have reasonably been prevented by Monarch. Therefore I am unable to
    agree to your claim for compensation.



    Yours sincerely,



    EU Claims

    Monarch Airlines

    Tel : 01582 531712
  • val Burden
    We are now taking this to the next step
  • cjkeeko
    Response from klm
    We were flying from Dubai to Glasgow with a connection in Amsterdam. The flights were booked directly with KLM and both flights were on the one boarding card. We experienced a one hour delay in getting to Amsterdam due to a technical fault and this resulted in us missing our connecting flight. KLM customer service at Amsterdam was very poor, we were put on an alternative flight and arrived in Glasgow over six hours late. I sent the compensation template letter to KLM last week and received a reply to say that we were ineligible for compensation as our actual flight delay was only an hour. I have written back to say that I believe they are misinterpreting the legislation as it is the delay arriving at your final destination that counts. I am awaiting a response but just wanted to check that I am right in my understanding that when connecting flights are booked with the carrier and on the one boarding card it is the arrival at final destination that counts.
    Originally posted by cjkeeko

    I have received the following response from KLM regarding the claim above, relating to two flights booked through KLM and on the one ticket number.

    " Having carefully reviewed your claim, I regret to inform you that it is not possible to alter our position. I should explain that in accordance with established caselaw, namely the ruling of the European Court of Justice in the case of Shenkel -v- Emirates, a flight is a unit of carriage for the purpose of EU Regulation 261/04 and not a succession of flights. Subsequently, as your flight KL 430 from Dubai to Amsterdam on the 3rd of January was not delayed by three hours, cash compensation is not applicable. I am sorry for any disappointment this may cause you."

    As previously discussed in the thread it it the final destination arrival that counts and I now wish to pursue this through the legal channel however The link to European court claims doesn't seem to be working for me. Centipede100 could you please advise me of the best way to take this forward, I may have legal cover with my travel insurance policy if not I will take forward myself.
    • Mark2spark
    • By Mark2spark 21st Feb 13, 12:30 AM
    • 2,285 Posts
    • 876 Thanks
    Mark2spark
    however The link to European court claims doesn't seem to be working for me.
    Originally posted by cjkeeko
    It works ok for me?



    http://ec.europa.eu/justice_home/judicialatlascivil/html/sc_form1_en.jsp?countrySession=4&txtPageBack=sc_fi lling_uk_en.htm
  • blondmark
    I have received the following response from KLM regarding the claim above, relating to two flights booked through KLM and on the one ticket number.

    " Having carefully reviewed your claim, I regret to inform you that it is not possible to alter our position. I should explain that in accordance with established caselaw, namely the ruling of the European Court of Justice in the case of Shenkel -v- Emirates, a flight is a unit of carriage for the purpose of EU Regulation 261/04 and not a succession of flights. Subsequently, as your flight KL 430 from Dubai to Amsterdam on the 3rd of January was not delayed by three hours, cash compensation is not applicable. I am sorry for any disappointment this may cause you."
    Originally posted by cjkeeko
    Oh yes? Would that be Emirates Airlines v Diether Schenkel (Case C‑173/07)? That's nothing to do with ongoing flights - it only relates to return flights, so it's completely irrelevant.

    Here's what the Fourth Chamber ruled:
    Article 3(1)(a) of Regulation (EC) No 261/2004 of the European Parliament and of the Council of 11 February 2004 establishing common rules on compensation and assistance to passengers in the event of denied boarding and of cancellation or long delay of flights, and repealing Regulation (EEC) No 295/91, must be interpreted as not applying to the case of an outward and return journey in which passengers who have originally departed from an airport located in the territory of a Member State to which the EC Treaty applies travel back to that airport on a flight from an airport located in a non-member country. The fact that the outward and return flights are the subject of a single booking has no effect on the interpretation of that provision.
  • cjkeeko
    marks2spark, centipede100 and blondmark thank you so much for your great advice. Will keep you informed of next step. We travel to Dubai frequently with KLM/airfrance to visit family and have experienced delays and had boarding denied several times however customer service has always been good and we have accepted that sometimes these things happen however it was the appalling customer service we received in January that prompted us to make a complaint to KLM and only then did we see on the website that you could claim for compensation for delay's. The airline seem to be batting away our claim with "questionable honesty" and I have no doubt if I keep pressing the matter re the legislation they would probably then claim extraordinary circumstances so feel best step at this point is to progress legally, didn't realise could do this through MCOL as we live in Scotland and KLM is not a UK company so appreciate your advice. In the original claim we had asked KLM for transportation vouchers because this was the higher value and as I said we travel at least once per year to see family so would definitely use them, will end up costing KLM more if they have to pay cash and costs.
    Last edited by cjkeeko; 21-02-2013 at 9:10 PM.
  • MrTeee
    I just applied to KLM for cancelled flight in July 2005 but the 2nd paragraph of their reply says...Air travel is governed by the international body of law known as the Montreal Convention of 1999. Article 35 of this regulation sets a time limit of two years from the date of the planned or actual arrival of a flight to claim for damages.
    They refuse compensation, can I take this claim elsewhere?
    • Caz3121
    • By Caz3121 23rd Feb 13, 6:13 PM
    • 12,503 Posts
    • 8,147 Thanks
    Caz3121
    I just applied to KLM for cancelled flight in July 2005 but the 2nd paragraph of their reply says...Air travel is governed by the international body of law known as the Montreal Convention of 1999. Article 35 of this regulation sets a time limit of two years from the date of the planned or actual arrival of a flight to claim for damages.
    They refuse compensation, can I take this claim elsewhere?
    Originally posted by MrTeee
    If you go through the UK courts you have 6 years but you are still out of time

    as per the FAQs in post #2
  • blondmark
    marks2spark, centipede100 and blondmark thank you so much for your great advice. Will keep you informed of next step. We travel to Dubai frequently with KLM/airfrance to visit family and have experienced delays and had boarding denied several times however customer service has always been good and we have accepted that sometimes these things happen however it was the appalling customer service we received in January that prompted us to make a complaint to KLM and only then did we see on the website that you could claim for compensation for delay's. The airline seem to be batting away our claim with "questionable honesty" and I have no doubt if I keep pressing the matter re the legislation they would probably then claim extraordinary circumstances so feel best step at this point is to progress legally, didn't realise could do this through MCOL as we live in Scotland and KLM is not a UK company so appreciate your advice. In the original claim we had asked KLM for transportation vouchers because this was the higher value and as I said we travel at least once per year to see family so would definitely use them, will end up costing KLM more if they have to pay cash and costs.
    Originally posted by cjkeeko
    It's always a blessing when the airline is based in another European state because you have the choice of avoiding having a hearing and still win your claim. And who actually wants to go to court?

    To do this you complete Form A of the European Small Claims Procedure, hand it in to your local county court and ask them to serve it on KLM in Holland. Tick the box saying no hearing required, and the entire claim is paper-based.

    Same claim, same money, no hearing.
  • twix72
    Firstly, please never post in capitals again!

    Secondly, outbound flight you were delayed in reaching your final destination by more than 3 hours and therefore are entitled to 600 euros per passenger compensation.

    Thirdly, inbound flight meant you were also delayed in reaching your final destination by more than 3 hours so again are entitled to 600 euros in compensation.
    Originally posted by Centipede100


    This is the reply I got this morning.....please HELP!!!!


    Thank you for your recent communications regarding the disruption to your flight KL565 from Amsterdam to Nairobi on22nd March 2005 and about which you had already contacted us on I am sorry for any inconvenience the disruption to your journey may have caused.

    I can assure that this in no way reflects the standard of service we aim to provide.

    Your flight was delayed as a result of technical problems. We took all the reasonable measures we could under these particular circumstances and every effort was made in order to offer you the best possible care and assistance.

    According to EU recommendations, airline passengers are entitled to claim compensation dating back no longer than 6 years. I appreciate your comments that you have previously written to us before the recent changes, unfortunately as your flights are out of the 6 year time limit we are not liable for compensation in this instance.

    Your choice of airline for your trip is appreciated, and I understand you will consider this incident when planning future trips. I hope that you will not judge us on the basis of this experience and will elect to give us another try. We look forward to the opportunity of welcoming you on-board again and regaining your confidence in us.

    Yours sincerely
  • twix72
    I have been writing to them since 2005 through letters, emails and even phone calls... Surely the law should cover this
  • blondmark
    I have been writing to them since 2005 through letters, emails and even phone calls... Surely the law should cover this
    Originally posted by twix72
    It does; you have six years from the date of the delay to lodge your claim. For whatever reason you have failed to do this so your right to claim has regrettably expired.

    Moral of the story - stop writing to airlines and start your court claim.
    • TallArnie
    • By TallArnie 26th Feb 13, 2:44 PM
    • 16 Posts
    • 5 Thanks
    TallArnie
    We were recently delayed by 5 hours, but KLM argued that we weren't entitled to any compensation because the cancellation was announced more than 14 days before departure (see note below) and because we arrived at our final destination on the same day on a later flight. We were therefore stuck at Amsterdam Airport for 5 hours (with an 8-month old) without any compensation.
    Writing to KLM Customer Services just gave the same outcome: They announced the cancellation more than 14 days in advance and they got us from A to B as they were required, so no compensation. Are they actually correct?

    (Note: I don't recall receiving the announcement, but there's no way for me to prove or disprove this.)
    Last edited by TallArnie; 26-02-2013 at 2:49 PM.
Welcome to our new Forum!

Our aim is to save you money quickly and easily. We hope you like it!

Forum Team Contact us

Live Stats

18Posts Today

4,361Users online

Martin's Twitter