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    • custardy
    • By custardy 1st Jul 12, 2:29 PM
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    custardy
    So if the driver is found not guilty, who's fault might it be?
    Originally posted by Sgt Pepper
    what, you mean when a driver ploughs into the back of a cyclist on a straight piece of road?
    • Paradigm
    • By Paradigm 1st Jul 12, 2:36 PM
    • 3,445 Posts
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    Paradigm
    absolutely not. This is just blame shaming - "hmm, cyclist seem to be getting killed a lot - lets train them some more"

    when was the last time a cyclist ran into a car and killed or injured the car driver...hmm practically never? even the cyclist / cyclist or cyclist / pedestrian interface is practically unheard of.

    it's the other way around - driver education - that they don't own the road, that there are vulnerable road users out there for whom they have a duty of care and that they need to just share the damned road a bit better.

    its in the drivers interest to do this also - as every cyclist on the road is probably one less car on the morning commute.
    Originally posted by gkerr4
    Gawd, don't take much to stir up cyclists does it?
    So the bit in bold is the reason not to have any training whatsoever? The fact that a cyclist is going to always come out 2nd best isn't a reason for some basic safety training, simple stuff like don't go up the inside of trucks/buses at traffic lights?

    I've already said I'm in favour of ongoing driver training but to leave it at that & pin all responsibility on the motorist is fantasy...

    Jeez, wish I'd gone for the "they should all be insured & taxed" idea, at least then I could understand the hostility.
    Always try to be at least half the person your dog thinks you are!
  • Sgt Pepper
    what, you mean when a driver ploughs into the back of a cyclist on a straight piece of road?
    Originally posted by custardy
    Obviously not as cut and dry as that though is it?
    • zagfles
    • By zagfles 1st Jul 12, 2:42 PM
    • 14,787 Posts
    • 13,291 Thanks
    zagfles
    I do a fair bit of Cycling myself, well I own a bike...
    However you do get the militant Road rage cyclist who insist on undertaking vehicles turning left, they dont get it that if someone over takes you on the right, that does not mean you can undertake them on the left if they are turning left a mile later.
    Unless you want to DIE that is.
    A cycle never is the weapon of choice in a road rage argument.

    The best I have seen was a female driver turning left off a dual carriageway when Mr Militant decides to undertake and he ends up grabbing the mirror and hurling abuse, to which she shouted at the top her voice.
    You sir are going to end up as a F****ing stain on the road if you keep riding like that.
    Classic line.
    I do often wonder how many killed are militant car haters in Hi viz clothing as opposed to those who obey the traffic rules and highway code.
    We know some drivers make mistakes as well, but that is not the correct tool to enforce your anger upon.
    Become a bus driver if you want to run people over.
    Originally posted by vax2002
    Yes some moron did this with me the other day. Clearly indicating left and he undertook me. And don't get me started on the idiots who think red lights don't apply to them...
    • custardy
    • By custardy 1st Jul 12, 2:42 PM
    • 35,109 Posts
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    custardy
    Obviously not as cut and dry as that though is it?
    Originally posted by Sgt Pepper
    isnt it? read the links
    The whole point of the thread.
  • Dave_C
    Yes some moron did this with me the other day. Clearly indicating left and he undertook me..
    Originally posted by zagfles
    As a cyclist and a driver I agree on this point. Apart from being covered in every Cycle training course, this is detailed in the highway code rules 72 and 73
    And don't get me started on the idiots who think red lights don't apply to them.
    You mean these idiots?

    Dave
    • Billy-no-Money
    • By Billy-no-Money 1st Jul 12, 3:15 PM
    • 320 Posts
    • 341 Thanks
    Billy-no-Money
    One of my colleagues is a driver who routinely creeps up to 40mph in a 30 limit, and constantly has people 'pulling out in front of him' - in reality, he sees a situation developing and actually accelerates into it so he can blast his horn.

    He's cycled to work with me a few times now, and it's terrifying. Leaving our site he just rides straight out into the road without looking. Hops onto the path round traffic lights and wonders why I don't follow. Turns without signalling or looking behind. But he always wears a helmet so that's OK.

    This man is a rubbish driver and a rubbish cyclist.

    Training will make no difference - he knows the rules, he just chooses to ignore them.
    Long-haul Supporters DFW 120
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  • Sgt Pepper
    isnt it? read the links
    The whole point of the thread.
    Originally posted by custardy
    As they're press reports they are obviously more comprehensive than the police reports. So not the full story.
  • mikey72
    As they're press reports they are obviously more comprehensive than the police reports. So not the full story.
    Originally posted by Sgt Pepper
    One of the stories states the driver claimed the cyclist had no lights. Not denied by the police. So it does beg the question, there was no doubt he was speeding, and driving badly, but on what he thought was a deserted road. So, would he have been quite so rash if he saw the light on the other side, coming towards him?
    • Johnmcl7
    • By Johnmcl7 1st Jul 12, 4:08 PM
    • 2,607 Posts
    • 1,734 Thanks
    Johnmcl7
    I recognise what you are saying but some kind of formal training for cyclists can only be good surely?

    Ok, no amount of training will account for every situation/idiot but if it makes a cyclist more aware of the dangers then it helps minimise risk.
    Originally posted by Paradigm
    No, I don't really think so - the problem with it would be it would likely need to be voluntary which clearly isn't going to be any use for those that can't be bothered in the first place. For anyone who wants to learn any rules of the road or profiency there are numerous resources already out there.

    That and I don't think poor cycling is due to lack of knowledge and needing help, it's just cyclists being impatient and not paying attention. Many of the rules of the road for cyclists are not difficult, cycle on the left hand side of the road, stop at red traffic lights, show which way you're going etc. I don't think the cyclists I see breaking these rules don't know them, it's just they're ignoring them. I also think it's common sense that the better you can be seen, the less the chance you have of someone hitting you because they didn't see you - I can't believe it when I see people cycling at night in dark clothing, no lights and nothing reflective which makes them very hard to see.

    Horrible to read the stories in the news articles particularly when they were well prepared, I always hope if I'm visible and careful I'll be ok but clearly that's not guaranteed. I generally stick to quieter roads and it's not that busy up here anyway, I dno't like the busy high speed roads at all.

    John
    • Paradigm
    • By Paradigm 1st Jul 12, 4:13 PM
    • 3,445 Posts
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    Paradigm
    The 'type' are those without experience or knowledge
    Or do you propose someone with 30 years+ cycling experience goes on a course?
    Originally posted by custardy
    I've got 30 years driving experience & have yet to hit a cyclist, I'm prepared to go on a course. Why not you?

    my point(not rant as you seem to think it is) is that as usual theres usually an angle that somehow theres an underlying cause from the cyclist.
    The storys I lniked to(and i can get more if you wish) show experienced cyclists who are killed through driver error(if im being generous)
    Originally posted by custardy
    There will always be driver error for as long as we're human! Cyclists are human too &, strangely enough, make errors.

    The drivers in the links you posted were found not guilty &, as I wasn't at the scene at the time of the incidents, I can't begin to second guess the findings.
    Always try to be at least half the person your dog thinks you are!
    • Paradigm
    • By Paradigm 1st Jul 12, 4:28 PM
    • 3,445 Posts
    • 4,343 Thanks
    Paradigm
    No, I don't really think so - the problem with it would be it would likely need to be voluntary which clearly isn't going to be any use for those that can't be bothered in the first place. For anyone who wants to learn any rules of the road or profiency there are numerous resources already out there.

    That and I don't think poor cycling is due to lack of knowledge and needing help, it's just cyclists being impatient and not paying attention. Many of the rules of the road for cyclists are not difficult, cycle on the left hand side of the road, stop at red traffic lights, show which way you're going etc. I don't think the cyclists I see breaking these rules don't know them, it's just they're ignoring them. I also think it's common sense that the better you can be seen, the less the chance you have of someone hitting you because they didn't see you - I can't believe it when I see people cycling at night in dark clothing, no lights and nothing reflective which makes them very hard to see.

    Horrible to read the stories in the news articles particularly when they were well prepared, I always hope if I'm visible and careful I'll be ok but clearly that's not guaranteed. I generally stick to quieter roads and it's not that busy up here anyway, I dno't like the busy high speed roads at all.

    John
    Originally posted by Johnmcl7
    Quite a refreshing post from, I assume, a cyclist.

    The bit in bold is worrying. If what you say is correct then no amount of training (motorist or cyclist) is going to make a jot of difference.
    Always try to be at least half the person your dog thinks you are!
    • arcon5
    • By arcon5 1st Jul 12, 4:33 PM
    • 13,679 Posts
    • 8,656 Thanks
    arcon5
    absolutely not. This is just blame shaming - "hmm, cyclist seem to be getting killed a lot - lets train them some more"

    when was the last time a cyclist ran into a car and killed or injured the car driver...hmm practically never? even the cyclist / cyclist or cyclist / pedestrian interface is practically unheard of.

    it's the other way around - driver education
    - that they don't own the road, that there are vulnerable road users out there for whom they have a duty of care and that they need to just share the damned road a bit better.

    its in the drivers interest to do this also - as every cyclist on the road is probably one less car on the morning commute.
    Originally posted by gkerr4
    Are you saying that if a cyclist veers right without looking or indication and I hit him then it is my fault for not being educated as a driver on the basis i'm not injured but he is?
    • arcon5
    • By arcon5 1st Jul 12, 4:38 PM
    • 13,679 Posts
    • 8,656 Thanks
    arcon5
    I hate the "i've been driving/cycling/whatever for 20/30/however long lines".

    A friend was run in to whilst near stationary by a driver not paying attention to slowing traffic, they both got out and the conversation was along the lines of

    Victim:'please get your insurance details.'
    Idiot driver: 'your not having my blooding insurance details. I've been driving for 30 years so don't imply this is my fault.'

    After a few more minutes of ranting the friend called the police to attend.
    • Bennifred
    • By Bennifred 1st Jul 12, 4:48 PM
    • 3,869 Posts
    • 7,945 Thanks
    Bennifred
    One of my colleagues is a driver who routinely creeps up to 40mph in a 30 limit, and constantly has people 'pulling out in front of him' - in reality, he sees a situation developing and actually accelerates into it so he can blast his horn.

    He's cycled to work with me a few times now, and it's terrifying. Leaving our site he just rides straight out into the road without looking. Hops onto the path round traffic lights and wonders why I don't follow. Turns without signalling or looking behind. But he always wears a helmet so that's OK.

    This man is a rubbish driver and a rubbish cyclist.

    Training will make no difference - he knows the rules, he just chooses to ignore them.
    Originally posted by Billy-no-Money
    I really hope you put him right - he sounds like a total idiot!
    [
    • custardy
    • By custardy 1st Jul 12, 4:49 PM
    • 35,109 Posts
    • 29,783 Thanks
    custardy
    I've got 30 years driving experience & have yet to hit a cyclist, I'm prepared to go on a course. Why not you?


    what is the course going to teach me? A driver refresher course is refreshing a set of skills. As a cyclist I have skills plus many other factors outwih that. weather,road conditions etc are a far greater issue on 2 wheels. then you have the issue of fitness levels & bike capabilities.
    what is this training course going to cover?



    There will always be driver error for as long as we're human! Cyclists are human too &, strangely enough, make errors.

    The drivers in the links you posted were found not guilty &, as I wasn't at the scene at the time of the incidents, I can't begin to second guess the findings.
    Originally posted by Paradigm
    found not guilty.
    the coach driver who admitted they were driving too fast for the conditions and how far they could see?
    the driver who had a van "block his view" so he couldnt see a cyclist? Thats why you dop back and maintain a safe distance even if a vehicle cuts that distance.

    Both cases show no legal blame. Yet both testomonies show neither was driving to an acceptable standard.
    So we see the legal situation is unacceptable. kill two people with your coach and its all good, these things happen
    • Paradigm
    • By Paradigm 1st Jul 12, 4:56 PM
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    Paradigm
    found not guilty.
    the coach driver who admitted they were driving too fast for the conditions and how far they could see?
    the driver who had a van "block his view" so he couldnt see a cyclist? Thats why you dop back and maintain a safe distance even if a vehicle cuts that distance.

    Both cases show no legal blame. Yet both testomonies show neither was driving to an acceptable standard.
    So we see the legal situation is unacceptable. kill two people with your coach and its all good, these things happen
    Originally posted by custardy
    Dunno what you want anyone to say, they were found not guilty. Right or wrong that's the end.

    what is the course going to teach me? A driver refresher course is refreshing a set of skills. As a cyclist I have skills plus many other factors outwih that. weather,road conditions etc are a far greater issue on 2 wheels. then you have the issue of fitness levels & bike capabilities.
    what is this training course going to cover?


    So you know everything & can't be taught a thing but I can??

    A certain amount of arrogance there if you don't mind me saying.

    Always try to be at least half the person your dog thinks you are!
    • custardy
    • By custardy 1st Jul 12, 5:00 PM
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    • 29,783 Thanks
    custardy
    have to agree. I've been driving for over 20 years now
    plus I have the 'old' licence with the extra driving classifications by default.
    probably every 10 years would be a practical soft introduction to retesting.
    Originally posted by custardy
    Dunno what you want anyone to say, they were found not guilty. Right or wrong that's the end.



    So you know everything & can't be taught a thing but I can??

    A certain amount of arrogance there if you don't mind me saying.
    Originally posted by Paradigm

    yes as you can see. thats exactly what I said.........
    • Paradigm
    • By Paradigm 1st Jul 12, 5:03 PM
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    Paradigm
    yes as you can see. thats exactly what I said.........
    Originally posted by custardy
    But as a cyclist you think not?
    Always try to be at least half the person your dog thinks you are!
    • custardy
    • By custardy 1st Jul 12, 5:12 PM
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    • 29,783 Thanks
    custardy
    But as a cyclist you think not?
    Originally posted by Paradigm
    well what are they going to refresh on this course?
    what are they going to teach?
    a basic proficiency 'test'?
    Is that really a way to 'teach' people what to do in real life?

    what would the course say to this 'infrastructure'?

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