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  • FIRST POST
    absidoodledandy
    storage heater/economy 7 queries
    • #1
    • 7th Aug 06, 10:45 AM
    storage heater/economy 7 queries 7th Aug 06 at 10:45 AM
    This may sound like a stupid question but how do storage heaters know to come on at night time?

    Do they have an internal timer? Does the change in electric supply for normal to ecomomy 7 trigger them?

    I have storage heaters and i find them to be quite expensive (electricity bill is 50-60/m in winter in a one bed flat with just me as opposed to 15-20/m in summer) so i was wondering if possibly they are coming on at the wrong time?

    Is that even possible or if they have an internal timer does switching them off all summer mess up the timings?

    Any advice on this subject is very welcome
Page 3
    • Cardew
    • By Cardew 8th Dec 07, 6:26 PM
    • 28,031 Posts
    • 13,878 Thanks
    Cardew
    Having been in the electrical industry all my working life I have supplied and installed all types of heating makes and systems.
    Originally posted by ACEELECLTD
    Heaters that run on day rate electricity most of the time!!!

    You may have been in the electricity industry all your life, but you fail to point out that it doesnt matter what form of electrical heating(other than heat pumps) you get the same heat output for 1kW input regardless.

    Your Kalirel heaters produce no more heat than your Granny's 1/2/3 bar fire.

    Essentially they work on the same principle as a £30 oil filled heater and give no more heat output for the same input.


    Want to discuss it in technical terms?
    • nick74
    • By nick74 8th Dec 07, 11:11 PM
    • 375 Posts
    • 286 Thanks
    nick74
    we heated a mid terrace all insulated with d/glazing house the other day as a challenge for 3units (24hour test period) maintaining uniform temperature of 14 degrees (about £0.30) we used the heaters set to 24degrees and used 30 units (about £3.00).
    Originally posted by ACEELECLTD
    Hmmm, that sounds expensive to me!
    I heat my well insulated & double glazed mid terrace house to around 22 degrees, 24 hours a day, with storage heaters, plus heat a large tank of hot water every night, plus run a washing machine every 3 days or so, all for around 30 units per night on Economy 7 at 3.55p per unit, so costing about £1.07 per day. I never need to supplement this with heating on peak rates, so only use around 3-4 peak rate units a day. Sounds as though the heaters you recommend would cost me over double what I'm currently paying!
    Last edited by nick74; 08-12-2007 at 11:16 PM.
  • ACEELECLTD
    Sorry for earlier post....I lost interest in providing the full explanation as it was my first post for a while and I was going out. The 30 units that were used were the reason of running the heater stats outside their normal operational limits to a tempreature that could never be achieved (it was 29degrees not 24). In short if I want a room to be 21degrees and set the stat at 21degrees ,as long as the heater is correctly sized for the room it will reach temperature and then cycle the heat on and off to maintain that temperature. this is normally a pretty basic operation in which a 1kw heating element for example draws 1kw of heat input to set temperature then zero current until room temp drops then 1kw and so on. By using a microprocessor (kalirel) controlled device that operation gets smarter. It draws full current for approx 10mins max then as it approaches the set temperature it automatically reduces input current to the required amount to just hit temperature all be it 50%, 17%, 3% of maximum. As you sound quite accomplished at saving money and also well read check out www.kalirel.co.uk for the full technical how they work. it is the way that you can monitor, alter and control each individual heater real time that allows the savings to be used. for the record as you know if it is a very cold day and for example your xl18 (2.55kw) storage heater has the input set at maximum it can suck up an input charge of 18kwh or units at 3.55p per unit (kwh) that is in fact 64p per heater approx per charge. You would save money by converting over to economy 10 as your input charge could be set lower and you could use your washing machine, etc during the 8-10pm slot. Read the tech info on the kalirel site though for the how they work information, as i said I can only speak from what I have seen and what units I have actually seen being used. regards. ps for Cardew as you will see on the website it is the thermodynamic gel that maintains the heat effect for such a long time that makes them so efficient as you may know that grannys bar fire will actually go from red hot to luke warm in approx 8mins from when you remove the electric, the kalirel heater will give you around 40+ mins which means the bar fire would use 5x the energy input for the same heat ouput even though they are as you pointed out both using 1000w elements. When we size a room we work on a 50% ratio to Storage heaters. They need 2000w we only need to size for 1000w. again look forward to your further questions
    • Cardew
    • By Cardew 9th Dec 07, 9:33 AM
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    • 13,878 Thanks
    Cardew
    ps for Cardew as you will see on the website it is the thermodynamic gel that maintains the heat effect for such a long time that makes them so efficient as you may know that grannys bar fire will actually go from red hot to luke warm in approx 8mins from when you remove the electric, the kalirel heater will give you around 40+ mins which means the bar fire would use 5x the energy input for the same heat ouput even though they are as you pointed out both using 1000w elements. When we size a room we work on a 50% ratio to Storage heaters. They need 2000w we only need to size for 1000w. again look forward to your further questions
    Originally posted by ACEELECLTD
    That I am afraid is absolute rubbish.

    Of course I have read the Kalirel website and it is full of meaningless irrelevant mumbo jumbo specifically designed to impress the layman. I would add that I am a Chartered Electrical Engineer so do have some knowledge of these matters.

    Granny's 1 bar(1kW)electric fire produces EXACTLY the same amount of heat as a 1kW Kalirel heater.

    The charachteristics of how any electrical heater produces that heat varies.

    Granny's 1 bar fire, fan heaters, infra-red heaters produce their heat very quickly, but have virtually no residual heat.

    Oil filled radiators are slow to heat up and produce heat, but retain heat longer as the oil takes longer to cool. Kalirel heaters work on exactly the same principle. They are no more efficient as you state.

    To claim that Granny's 1 bar will need 5x the energy input for the same heat output is plain stupid. It demonstrates that you know absolutely nothing about electrical energy and the laws of physics.

    Kalirel's much vaunted 'microprocessor controlled device' is nothing more than a sophisticated thermostat. It does exactly the same task as a thermostat i.e. shuts off the power when the temperature of the room reaches the required level.

    A thermostatically controlled oil filled radiator costing £30 will produce exactly the same amount of heat for 1kWh of electricity as a Kalirel heater costing many times more than £30.

    In fact you can argue that in some ways heaters producing 'instant' heat(1 bar fire, fan heater, etc) are more effective as if they are switched off as you leave the room, and are not producing heat when not required.

    So lets get this straight once and for all.

    It will take XX kWh of electricity to maintain any room at given temperature and that amount of electricity is the same no matter what form of electrical heater you use, and that includes a Kalirel system.

    It really is reprehensible for people with a vested interest(e.g. people who install systems) to come on a Money Saving site like this and make such claims.

    Claims like '5x the energy input' if repeated by manufacturers, in media other than the internet, would immediately make them liable for action by Trading Standards authorities.
    Last edited by Cardew; 09-12-2007 at 11:06 AM.
    • nick74
    • By nick74 9th Dec 07, 10:02 AM
    • 375 Posts
    • 286 Thanks
    nick74
    as you will see on the website it is the thermodynamic gel that maintains the heat effect for such a long time that makes them so efficient as you may know that grannys bar fire will actually go from red hot to luke warm in approx 8mins from when you remove the electric, the kalirel heater will give you around 40+ mins which means the bar fire would use 5x the energy input for the same heat ouput even though they are as you pointed out both using 1000w elements. When we size a room we work on a 50% ratio to Storage heaters. They need 2000w we only need to size for 1000w. again look forward to your further questions
    Originally posted by ACEELECLTD
    You say the 1000w Kalirel heater is 5x more energy efficient because it stays hot for 5 times as long after its been switched off? So you measure the efficiency of a heater based on how long it stays hot after you switch it off then?
    Ok, my storage heaters stay hot for around 15 hours after they're switched off. On the basis of that, it must mean that the storage heaters are about 20 times more efficient than kalirel then? :rolleyes:
  • ACEELECLTD
    Sorry again with the explanation as we sort to have missed the point. The purpose of the whole postings was how do we get to be the exact temperature in our homes exactly when we need it for the cheapest way possible. I am merely offering an alternative that people can go and look into and then find out what is right for them. The key though is to find out about the entire range of heating options out there. The market is quite exiting as there are lots of new ways of heating your homes out there. This is merely one of them that appears to be doing a better job than other comparable or previous heating systems for the clients who have had them installed. I have a vested interest, as I have always said, in Kalirel as I am now an approved installer however I was acting on good faith from what I had seen. The key to saving money is to look at what you have and continually tweak and refine it to make it work better. If i want it to be 18degrees now thats what i want, if at 5.00pm i want to be 21degrees that is what i want. It is the element of ease of controllability to suit individual requirements that will always be the winner. It is only through knowing about what possible alternatives are available and then through personal research that allows you to make an informed choice. The beauty though through forums is that every now and then you will pick up a gem of information which will allow you to take what you have and make it better. If you are generally out of the house during the day and have storage heaters than E10 will always win over E7 as you can reduce the input setting and the economy hours are more realistically usable for other day to day functions such as washing, immersion heater boosts. regards again and thank you for taking the time to respond
    • Cardew
    • By Cardew 9th Dec 07, 1:29 PM
    • 28,031 Posts
    • 13,878 Thanks
    Cardew
    The purpose of the whole postings was how do we get to be the exact temperature in our homes exactly when we need it for the cheapest way possible.
    Originally posted by ACEELECLTD
    Well we would all agree with that aim.

    The problem is that(with your vested interest) you are implying that a Kalirel system can go some way toward achieving that aim - and it won't.

    A Kalirel system, along with any other form of non-storage electrical heating(including Granny's 1 bar fire etc), is the most expensive way to heat a house it is possible to find.

    The reason installers favour the Kalirel system is that they are simplicity itself to install as they are no more than 1kW oil-filled(well gel!!) radiators with a 'posh' thermostat sold at an inflated price, with doubtless a huge margin of profit for those installing and manufacturing.

    They are 'pushed' relentlessly on forums like this and have a website that is a disgrace IMO.

    If you decide on electrical heating, for most people, storage heating using Economy 7 or Economy 10 is the cheapest option.

    Obviously storage heaters have drawbacks, not least that they 'leak' heat during the day and you need to 'plan ahead' with your heating requirements. But to 'top them up' during the day if required, costs exactly the same as electricty for a Kalirel system if you are on the same tariff.

    If you do decide to have electrical heating on a 'normal' 24/7 tariff,(and remember your water heating will then not be at E7 rates) then it is far cheaper to buy some cheap heaters(oil filled radiators if you want the same effect as Kalirel) rather than install a expensive Kalirel system. Remember they all produce heat at the same cost.
    • nick74
    • By nick74 9th Dec 07, 4:43 PM
    • 375 Posts
    • 286 Thanks
    nick74
    I wouldn't dispute that storage heaters have their problems, and due to their relative lack of controllability can waste electricity in terms of actual kwh's used. But the huge advantage of them over other forms of electric heating is the fact that they use electricity charged at 3.55p per kwh, as opposed to 10p per kwh used by virtually every other type including kalirel.
    You can "waste" a massive amount of electricity at 3.55p/unit before it gets anywhere near as expensive as running a more controllable system at 10p/unit!

    Use modern storage heaters, adequately sized, in a well insulated house and there's no reason why you should need to fall back on expensive daytime units for supplementary heating - I don't.

    I have considered switching from E7 to E10 to run my heaters, but that would mean a jump to around 5.5p/unit. Possibly worthwhile if I needed the afternoon boost to the heating, but I find in practice that I don't. The only difference E10 would make is that I would be using 30 kwh at 5.5p instead of 30 kwh at 3.55p, which clearly wouldn't save any money, and would tend to restrict my choice of electricity supplier.
    Last edited by nick74; 09-12-2007 at 4:45 PM.
    • Cardew
    • By Cardew 9th Dec 07, 6:50 PM
    • 28,031 Posts
    • 13,878 Thanks
    Cardew
    The post above should be repeated and repeated for the benefit of anyone tempted by the misleading adverts(and posts!) for Kalirel and similar systems running on day time electricity.

    Even if you do need to top-up at daytime rates(and some people will) you are still using electricity for that top up period at the same price as Kailrel uses all the time.
  • Terrylw1
    one of the spin offs of consumer power is that the Electricity suppliers have to get sharper with the tariffs on offer. The cheapest way to start to increase savings is to consider switching to an economy10 tariff. Scottish and Southern energy offer this tariff which gives you 5hours from midnight to 5am, 3hours 1pm to 4pm and 2hrs 8pm to 10pm. If you are disciplined enough to use the heavy power usage in those times or fit timers to tumble dryer, washing machine, dishwasher etc then this can be a real money saver. For storage heaters it also gives you extra heat capacity when you require it more regards
    Originally posted by ACEELECLTD

    Just to add onto this. E10 is not available in all old board regions meaning not everyone can have it. There are lots of problems with this type of metering and some Suppliers have not updated their billing systems to be able to handle this 2 MPAN arrangement.

    So, despite being in the industry for so long (I've also been in the elec industry on the Supplier end resolving problems with meter technical disputes) you also need to consider the potential headache factor that these can bring.

    So, if anyone wants one of these they should be careful in selecting a Supplier.

    Also, worth noting SP also do Economy 2000 which is E18 and gives you 18 hours off peak. So, there are even more obscure metering possibilities but you have to be wary of them as not all Suppliers are able to bill them properly.

    Personally, I used to like the old weekend tariffs but domestics just won't get them nowadays as the industry has end dated them. You used to get your peak rate at 7-7pm Mon-Fri and everything else was off peak. Churches, pubs & cell sites used to enjoy the benefits of this tariff.
    It's better to live 1 year as a tiger than a lifetime as a worm...but then, whoever heard of a wormskin rug!!!
  • starstreet46
    ecomomy 7
    i have switched on my heater by the wall changed the time and heating seating and it still does not work wat am i doing wrong?
    • StrawberryJam
    • By StrawberryJam 27th Mar 08, 10:11 PM
    • 98 Posts
    • 31 Thanks
    StrawberryJam
    Hi,
    I have been in with electric heating use a tarrif avaliable called "Total Heating and Total Control" or THTC

    I have two meters:
    "domestic standard energy" ie sockets and lights.
    "heating control energy" i.e all fixed hard wired heaters, eg storage, water, shower, panel etc.

    Its like E7 but you are in total control of when and how you use heat. I can put my hot water, panel heaters, electric fire, shower etc on at any time of the day and it costs me the low rate.

    There is a RadioTeleswitch which listens out for a signal.
    This controls the storage heater supply and the hot water element.

    It does have fixed times however most teleswitches are used for grid balencing.

    Sometimes about 4:45-5:00pm the storage heaters and hot water element all go on for a few minutes. This is generally because of a large local industrial load that has been removed so the power needs to go somehwere whilst the power stations wind down to reduced power, or the power has somewhere else to go.

    Likewise, around tea time it will go on just before people are having there tea in the country and off just after most people have finnished tea .

    The teleswitch system is part of the national grid load balencing system. If they need to get rid of power very quickly then they have millions of watts of storage heaters and hot water elements that can be switched on in 5mS.

    it gets more complicated still...
    Most teleswitches can respond automatically to grid changes. if the voltage or frequency are too high for a certain period of time then they will switch on the heater loads to pull the frequcny and voltage down - likewise if they are already on the there is a sag in frequcney or voltage they will shut the heaters off.

    the storage heat system is used increasinly as a place to go for wind energy - as the wind is variable, sometimes the scotland to england interconnector may not beable to take it all to england so the scotish storage heaters will click on.

    The teleswitch system is more common is scotland and the islands as the grids are more prone to over or undercapacity due to there smaller nature.
    Originally posted by stuartsjg
    I presume this is correct? I had no idea what my THTC was. The question regarding THTC - has anyone moved to a better deal? I found the best deal was to wear extra clothing when we talk about cost of heating
  • isobel81
    To anyone thinking of installing Kalirel heaters - PLEASE PLEASE DON'T!!

    My landlord installed them 2 years ago when my gas fan heaters stopped working and since then my electricity bill has been HUGE!! Obviously there have been price rises in the last couple of years, but my current electricity bill (I don't have any gas appliances now) is 103 per month. A couple of years ago when I had gas heaters the combined electricity and gas bill was 33 per month.

    I feel sick just thinking about it.

    Unfortunately my landlord still insists that the Kalirel heaters are energy efficient and therefore I am stuck with them for another winter...
    • Cardew
    • By Cardew 9th Sep 08, 10:21 PM
    • 28,031 Posts
    • 13,878 Thanks
    Cardew
    To anyone thinking of installing Kalirel heaters - PLEASE PLEASE DON'T!!

    My landlord installed them 2 years ago when my gas fan heaters stopped working and since then my electricity bill has been HUGE!! Obviously there have been price rises in the last couple of years, but my current electricity bill (I don't have any gas appliances now) is 103 per month. A couple of years ago when I had gas heaters the combined electricity and gas bill was 33 per month.

    I feel sick just thinking about it.

    Unfortunately my landlord still insists that the Kalirel heaters are energy efficient and therefore I am stuck with them for another winter...
    Originally posted by isobel81
    Your landlord has obviously been fooled by the misleading advertising blurb.

    All forms of electrical heating running on daytime electricity is the most expensive form of heating to run available - and that includes Kalirel and other similar systems.
  • isobel81
    [quote=Cardew;14057993]Your landlord has obviously been fooled by the misleading advertising blurb.

    I know :-( But I don't blame him tbh cos the Kalirel website is convincing! Surely lots of other people out there have been fooled??
    • Blairweech
    • By Blairweech 5th Dec 08, 11:13 PM
    • 1,379 Posts
    • 16,273 Thanks
    Blairweech
    My two upstairs storage heater are costing about £1/night a run. My downstairs one is costing £5/night to run. Why is this? Do I need to call EDF out to service them?
    Last edited by Blairweech; 05-12-2008 at 11:44 PM.
    We must all suffer one of two things: the pain of discipline or the pain of regret and disappointment
  • spuffy1979
    I also have 2 storage heaters in my flat, they seem to be costing em a fortune, Ive been taking regular reading etc and last month i have used 80!!!!
    Aaaarrrggggghhhhhhhhhhhhh
  • kris230376
    Hi, I am under freezing conditions since 4 days. here is the stroy and thanks for the patience to listen, read.

    i moved to a new flat last week and the flat has night storage heaters(E7). i have never used this before.since 4 weeks the house is freezing. there are 2 heaters one in living and one in bed room.

    1. There are 3 controls in each of the heaters. Output,input and comfort.

    i was browsing interenet for storage heaters and found output and input but not comfort. For each control, 3 is only maximum(some of the articles in internet had 6).

    I keep the bear minium output that is 1 when i start in the morning and when i get back in the evening i will increase little bit. i kept input on 2 and comfort is also 2. i am not sure if this is best setting so that the house can be warm.

    please can some suggest me the best possible settings so that my house can be warm.

    Thanks in advance
  • Odessa_Jayne
    Economy 7 nightmare
    Hey,

    Well this is my first as ive been looking frantically for information about Economy 7 Heaters.

    We moved into our property in October 06, at the time we had an actual reading done and then the following month estimated and again estimated in December and January. Our bill was set up for 61 a month.

    The heaters are fairly old ones and have the Input - Output dials on.

    I phoned up last weekend to re-set up a Direct Debit which had been cancelled the previous month. During the phone i was asked to read my meter, on reading the meter the women on the phone told me that it appears we were on the wrong tariff and have been for quite some time. We live in a block of flats of 15 by the way. She said to me that our bill should be more and said she would be sending out a revised statement.

    The revised statement arrived. The 320 includes 89 which was outstanding so in total 230 for January 23rd to 28th February.

    Looking at my units, me and my partner are both out 5 days a week 8 - 5.30 as we both work. For the 23/01/07 - 31/03/07 My day readings are. 1015 Units @ 10.301 - 104.56 and for the 1st February - 28th February my day readings are 1266 @10.740 = 135.97.

    I cant understand what has happened here as far as am aware we leave the heaters on by the plug, but we were told by the landlord that they only use electricity from 12-7am.

    Why has this bill gone so through the roof, have they made a mistake, have we made a mistake, or been given misleading information..

    If the bill is correct why wasnt this spotted when the inital reading was taken in October? Can anyone help here as this amount and the usage is ridicilous for 3 heaters, as there is nothing else on in the day as we're both out?

    Anybody any ideas im expecting a call from Scottish Power at lunch time about this so would appreciate any feedback at all...
    Originally posted by Sinned666
    Hi there,

    I am going through an almost identical situation to the one above... does anyone know what the problem was and how to fix it? Or is it a case of the electricity company changing the tarriff to a higher one?

    Please help...
    • alliecat
    • By alliecat 6th Jan 09, 8:26 PM
    • 2 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    alliecat
    Storage heater timer switch
    I can just about understand some of what you say but just to go a step further. In the kitchen there is a timer/progammer which runs to the on/of switch of the storage heater.The timer has a on,off & timer switch but the question what do I use this timer for/does it effect my econ 7 which has one of these radio transmitter things or do I have to set one of the times to the 0000 to 0700 eco7 times.
    Any help will be appreciated
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