eBay returned item problem

snowy72 · 5 October 2017 at 12:51AM

Hello,
I have an issue with an ebay purchase and don't know how to now proceed so any advice would be welcome.

The issue:

I purchased an item in August via paypal.
The seller sent it via Hermes who tried to deliver it while I was not at home
Hermes then returned the item to the seller
There is tracking to show that Hermes attempted delivery to me and that the item was returned to the seller
An issue that muddies the water is that whoever signed for the returned item did so using my name.

The seller claims that they did not receive the returned parcel & will not process a refund until they receive the return.

I have spoken with Hermes who have investigated this and provided me with all tracking details
I have informed the seller that if they have not received the returned parcel they need to file a lost parcel claim with Hermes as they have the contract with them.

I have proceeded through the ebay escalation process for "Item Not Received", they have just given their decision in the sellers favour and will not give me a refund.
Their decision is based on the fact that as a delivery was attempted at my location the seller has completed their part of the deal.

I am now left with no goods, no money and an uncooperative seller.

Any suggestions how to proceed?

Many Thanks,
Mark

soolin · 5 October 2017 at 9:07AM

snowy72 wrote: »

Hello,
I have an issue with an ebay purchase and don't know how to now proceed so any advice would be welcome.

The issue:
I purchased an item in August via paypal.

The seller sent it via Hermes who tried to deliver it while I was not at home

Hermes then returned the item to the seller

There is tracking to show that Hermes attempted delivery to me and that the item was returned to the seller

An issue that muddies the water is that whoever signed for the returned item did so using my name.

The seller claims that they did not receive the returned parcel & will not process a refund until they receive the return.

I have spoken with Hermes who have investigated this and provided me with all tracking details

I have informed the seller that if they have not received the returned parcel they need to file a lost parcel claim with Hermes as they have the contract with them.

I have proceeded through the ebay escalation process for "Item Not Received", they have just given their decision in the sellers favour and will not give me a refund.

Their decision is based on the fact that as a delivery was attempted at my location the seller has completed their part of the deal.

I am now left with no goods, no money and an uncooperative seller.

Any suggestions how to proceed?

Many Thanks,
Mark

This is strange, an attempted delivery for a buyer is not considered 'delivery' and should not have been found for the seller.

Can you please clarify as the bit about signing for a return doesn't make sense as far as MyHermes tracking goes. Does it show as 'delivered and then returned' or what? If at any point it shows delivery at your address then that would make this a seller win.

The next bit that needs clarification is how the tracking shows a return as that doesn't seem to fit Hermes tracking- if delivered and returned then all you would need to win a case is to show an attempted delivery with the seller (note the difference in requirement between delivery for the buyer and for the return). If it shows a delivery to you and then just a return with nothing else showing then again it is a seller win.

Once you clarify that and perhaps add the tracking details to this thread so we can see the time line (redact anything that could identify you) we can help you further - but we would need to see what it actually shows. Pending all that I would still be harassing MyHermes in this instance to find out what happened to the original 'faked' delivery.

Moogles44 · 5 October 2017 at 9:11AM

Hi,
What a pain, I'm not a fan of myhermes anyway due to a number of issues with them .
Things you could try are ring myhermes and start a claim? Ring them - It's painful and long usually talking to them but you may get someone helpful. They should be able to speak specifically to that courier and he should be able to say where he left it , if he remembers?

Ebay and PayPal are different and I find PayPal brilliant and not as blinkered as eBay when things go wrong . Maybe ring PayPal and explain this to them. They may refund you without taking it from seller.

Hope you get a solution

theonlywayisup · 5 October 2017 at 10:30AM

Moogles44 wrote: »

Hi,
What a pain, I'm not a fan of myhermes anyway due to a number of issues with them .
Things you could try are ring myhermes and start a claim? Ring them - It's painful and long usually talking to them but you may get someone helpful. They should be able to speak specifically to that courier and he should be able to say where he left it , if he remembers?

Ebay and PayPal are different and I find PayPal brilliant and not as blinkered as eBay when things go wrong . Maybe ring PayPal and explain this to them. They may refund you without taking it from seller.

Hope you get a solution

OP cannot start a claim with Hermes.

I concur with Soolin in that the original case should not have gone in favour of the seller on attempted delivery. I suspect what has probably happened is eBay have looked at the "status" of the parcel which is "delivered" and they won't look any further.

If I were you OP, I would appeal the claim on the basis that the delivery shows it was not delivered to you but back to the seller.

If the appeal fails, you can try Paypal but I suspect you will get the same situation - automated/non understanding CS who think the item is delivered. You have to get someone to understand the tracking all the way through and appreciate the item was never in your possession.

Moogles44 · 5 October 2017 at 4:54PM

theonlywayisup wrote: »

OP cannot start a claim with Hermes.

I concur with Soolin in that the original case should not have gone in favour of the seller on attempted delivery. I suspect what has probably happened is eBay have looked at the "status" of the parcel which is "delivered" and they won't look any further.

If I were you OP, I would appeal the claim on the basis that the delivery shows it was not delivered to you but back to the seller.

If the appeal fails, you can try Paypal but I suspect you will get the same situation - automated/non understanding CS who think the item is delivered. You have to get someone to understand the tracking all the way through and appreciate the item was never in your possession.

I have won about 5 cases in the last few years of buyer saying item not received ( gone straight to dispute without messaging me) but they just haven't collected it as never saw red card from post man or just didn't bother collecting it. Every single time I have won case as all eBay care about is tracking showing I sent it and it went to them or their post office. I honestly have had one just arrive back this week that I won case from not being sent ( she again just didn't collect it from post office ( signed for) but I had tracking but she still didn't collect it but seeing as case was closed in my favour I would be very surprised if she could do anything ( lucky I'm honest and she can repay postage and I'll resend).

I know it should work as you say but I've never ever experienced ebay looking further than seller sending item and it being delivered to buyer or taken to their local post office .

I wouldn't even bother asking eBay as they are hopeless with stuff like this ( as I have told them many times) , just go to PayPal they are really good and often use common sense. - paypal have sorted stuff out for me in two minutes whereas half an hour before talking with eBay has achieved nothing but frustration.

theonlywayisup · 5 October 2017 at 5:13PM

Moogles44 wrote: »

I have won about 5 cases in the last few years of buyer saying item not received ( gone straight to dispute without messaging me) but they just haven't collected it as never saw red card from post man or just didn't bother collecting it. Every single time I have won case as all eBay care about is tracking showing I sent it and it went to them or their post office.

Can you link to the T&C where that is the policy for INR?

Moogles44 wrote: »

I honestly have had one just arrive back this week that I won case from not being sent ( she again just didn't collect it from post office ( signed for) but I had tracking but she still didn't collect it but seeing as case was closed in my favour I would be very surprised if she could do anything ( lucky I'm honest and she can repay postage and I'll resend).

You seem to have a fair few INR. It's worrying to hear you are winning them against eBay's Money Back Guarantee T&C.

Moogles44 wrote: »

I know it should work as you say but I've never ever experienced ebay looking further than seller sending item and it being delivered to buyer or taken to their local post office .

Yes, that's the relevant point right there.

soolin · 5 October 2017 at 5:23PM

Moogles44 wrote: »

I have won about 5 cases in the last few years of buyer saying item not received ( gone straight to dispute without messaging me) but they just haven't collected it as never saw red card from post man or just didn't bother collecting it. Every single time I have won case as all eBay care about is tracking showing I sent it and it went to them or their post office. I honestly have had one just arrive back this week that I won case from not being sent ( she again just didn't collect it from post office ( signed for) but I had tracking but she still didn't collect it but seeing as case was closed in my favour I would be very surprised if she could do anything ( lucky I'm honest and she can repay postage and I'll resend).

I know it should work as you say but I've never ever experienced ebay looking further than seller sending item and it being delivered to buyer or taken to their local post office .

I wouldn't even bother asking eBay as they are hopeless with stuff like this ( as I have told them many times) , just go to PayPal they are really good and often use common sense. - paypal have sorted stuff out for me in two minutes whereas half an hour before talking with eBay has achieved nothing but frustration.

If you are winning INR claims merely with proof of postage then you are unique, this is not only against eBay rules it is against UK law . The seller community boards would love to hear from you with these wins as no one else has ever reported winning an INR claim without proof of delivery.

snowy72 · 5 October 2017 at 7:44PM

soolin wrote: »

This is strange, an attempted delivery for a buyer is not considered 'delivery' and should not have been found for the seller.

Can you please clarify as the bit about signing for a return doesn't make sense as far as MyHermes tracking goes. Does it show as 'delivered and then returned' or what? If at any point it shows delivery at your address then that would make this a seller win.

The next bit that needs clarification is how the tracking shows a return as that doesn't seem to fit Hermes tracking- if delivered and returned then all you would need to win a case is to show an attempted delivery with the seller (note the difference in requirement between delivery for the buyer and for the return). If it shows a delivery to you and then just a return with nothing else showing then again it is a seller win.

Once you clarify that and perhaps add the tracking details to this thread so we can see the time line (redact anything that could identify you) we can help you further - but we would need to see what it actually shows. Pending all that I would still be harassing MyHermes in this instance to find out what happened to the original 'faked' delivery.

Thanks to you all for the replies.
@soolin, I live in Devon, the seller is in Croydon. The parcel was returned and delivered to Croydon, the person who accepted the delivery was noted as my name in Hermes tracking.

For the second point here is the text of my email from Hermes cust service:

[FONT=&quot]Dear Mark,[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Thank you for contacting Hermes regarding this.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The most recent tracking shows that on 7/9@0935, the parcel was signed for by a customer. The name "Mark" is in the "additional info" section of the tracking, but no image is recorded from it.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The address on the parcel (for Return to Sender) was as follows:[/FONT]

(full address redacted)
[FONT=&quot]CROYDON[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]CR0 4JU[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The service provider who tracked the delivery operates within the "CR" postcode area.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]We made three attempts to deliver the parcel to you on 31/8, 1/9, and 2/9, but none were successful. The parcel was then held for a brief period before being relabelled and returned to sender.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Please find appended the full tracking of this parcel.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]If you have any further queries, please do not hesitate to get back in touch with us.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Kind regards,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Hermes Customer Service Agent[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Date Status Courier ID[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]: Carryover at Depot HPBW016 [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]07/09/2017 09:35 Signature Obtained - Customer C-939960[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]07/09/2017 09:28 CR-Delivery 09:00 - 11:00 today C-939960[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]07/09/2017 08:50 Courier Received C-939960[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]07/09/2017 07:13 Van Delivered out of van [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]07/09/2017 06:25 Outbound receipt at Sub Depot C-56760X[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]07/09/2017 05:57 Manifested PCMPMA27[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]07/09/2017 05:46 Loaded To Van At Depot 00010156[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]07/09/2017 02:04 Parent Child at Depot 00010156[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]07/09/2017 00:39 Depot Receipt via trailer 00010156[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]06/09/2017 18:58 Hub Despatch Trailer Parcel 00000000[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]06/09/2017 15:53 Hub Trailer Via Sorter WAR1 [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]06/09/2017 15:52 Hub Sorter Receipt Scan WAR1 [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]05/09/2017 14:57 UP Reallocated / Updated HPBW016 [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]05/09/2017 14:39 Carryover at Depot HPBW016 [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]05/09/2017 13:58 Held in UPP - 3rd Attempt 00006297[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]05/09/2017 09:37 Inbound receipt at Sub Depot Q-38730X[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]02/09/2017 09:08 Not Del'd - 3rd & Final Attempt Q-741465[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]02/09/2017 08:53 CR-Delivery 09:00 - 11:00 today Q-741465[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]02/09/2017 08:31 Courier Received Q-741465[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]02/09/2017 05:49 Manifested PCMPMA27[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]01/09/2017 09:36 Courier to Re-attempt Q-741465[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]01/09/2017 08:44 CR-Delivery 09:00 - 11:00 today Q-741465[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]01/09/2017 08:09 Courier Received Q-741465[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]01/09/2017 06:09 Manifested PCMPMA27[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]31/08/2017 09:24 Courier to Re-attempt Q-741465[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]31/08/2017 08:58 CR-Delivery 09:00 - 11:00 today Q-741465[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]31/08/2017 08:44 Courier Received Q-741465[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]31/08/2017 07:24 Van Delivered out of van [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]31/08/2017 06:57 Outbound receipt at Sub Depot Q-38730X[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]31/08/2017 06:29 Loaded To Van At Depot 00383802[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]31/08/2017 06:03 Manifested PCMPMA27[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]31/08/2017 00:17 Parent Child at Depot 00383802[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]31/08/2017 00:16 Receipt at Depot 00383802[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]30/08/2017 14:24 Hub Despatch Trailer Parcel 00000000[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]30/08/2017 12:17 Hub Trailer Via Sorter WAR1 [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]30/08/2017 12:16 Hub Sorter Receipt Scan WAR1 [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]29/08/2017 15:44 C2C Processed-Despatched 00010156[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]24/08/2017 11:25 Pre-Advice Loaded
[/FONT]

theonlywayisup · 5 October 2017 at 7:46PM

Have you done anything as per my post 4?

snowy72 · 5 October 2017 at 7:53PM

Moogles44 wrote: »

Hi,
What a pain, I'm not a fan of myhermes anyway due to a number of issues with them .
Things you could try are ring myhermes and start a claim? Ring them - It's painful and long usually talking to them but you may get someone helpful. They should be able to speak specifically to that courier and he should be able to say where he left it , if he remembers?

Ebay and PayPal are different and I find PayPal brilliant and not as blinkered as eBay when things go wrong . Maybe ring PayPal and explain this to them. They may refund you without taking it from seller.

Hope you get a solution

I concur that it's a pain contacting Hermes, if you go directly to the phone you get automated messages to try chat then it hangs up. The people on chat only say they will investigate & then write saying they can't help as I'm not the customer.
I tried ringing again after the chat & got through to speak to someone & they were very helpful, they listened to all my information, contacted the Hermes couriers in Devon and Croydon to confirm their tracking and sent me the emailed overview I posted in my reply to soolin.

I posted this to the seller via ebay but they still told me they had not received the parcel.

I have now opened a paypal claim, they have sent the detail to the seller & I have until 24 Oct to escalate or close it. Now I'm hoping that the seller is responsive.

snowy72 · 5 October 2017 at 7:57PM

theonlywayisup wrote: »

OP cannot start a claim with Hermes.

I concur with Soolin in that the original case should not have gone in favour of the seller on attempted delivery. I suspect what has probably happened is eBay have looked at the "status" of the parcel which is "delivered" and they won't look any further.

If I were you OP, I would appeal the claim on the basis that the delivery shows it was not delivered to you but back to the seller.

If the appeal fails, you can try Paypal but I suspect you will get the same situation - automated/non understanding CS who think the item is delivered. You have to get someone to understand the tracking all the way through and appreciate the item was never in your possession.

Here is the text of the ebay cust service when the closed my claim:

[FONT=&quot]Thank you for contacting eBay Customer Service. My name is Christine and I’m here to assist you about the (item xxxxxxxxxxx) you purchased from "xxxxxxxxxxxxx". I certainly know how it feels if you still haven’t received your item and I understand that you want to get a refund as the item has been return back to the seller. Please be assured that I will thoroughly discuss to you the outcome of this claim.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Mark, Before I proceed, I’d like you to know that I admire your patience and effort in this situation. Please be informed that in Item Not Received claims, a buyer may be eligible for a refund if the seller failed to provide tracking information or if the seller provided a tracking number but doesn’t display that the item has reached a buyer’s location I reviewed the tracking number and I found that courier tried to deliver the item to you many times which indicates that the item reached your location. Because of this, we’ve now closed this case.[/FONT]

eBay returned item problem

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