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  • FIRST POST
    • rosie51
    • By rosie51 19th May 19, 10:45 PM
    • 241Posts
    • 1,109Thanks
    rosie51
    Pip assessor job advertised and 32.000 SALARY
    • #1
    • 19th May 19, 10:45 PM
    Pip assessor job advertised and 32.000 SALARY 19th May 19 at 10:45 PM
    Having a nose on job web site the other day i saw a job for pip assessor and boy did i see red. The basic salary is 32.000 per year and a monthly bonus of up to 500
    Now i know why my lower rate of mobility has been taken off me, as of April just gone. It's so the assrssor gets their well deserved bonus , because of the lies they tell at the reassessments.
    I have requested a M R which i sent in last week so i do hope they enjoy reading notes i sent, all in the poorest hand written english i could manage and 10 pages long. Will not get meany where but least i told them the truth yet again.
    Last edited by rosie51; 26-05-2019 at 8:38 PM. Reason: to delete
Page 1
    • venison
    • By venison 19th May 19, 11:15 PM
    • 3,910 Posts
    • 5,590 Thanks
    venison
    • #2
    • 19th May 19, 11:15 PM
    • #2
    • 19th May 19, 11:15 PM
    We read complaints all the time about the poor standard of assessments, we rarely read about good ones, my point being you pay peanuts you get monkeys and in the great scheme of things 32k a year isn't a fantastic salary, I suppose if it so annoyed you then you could apply? Just a thought.
    For the many NOT the few
    • poppy12345
    • By poppy12345 19th May 19, 11:24 PM
    • 6,145 Posts
    • 5,683 Thanks
    poppy12345
    • #3
    • 19th May 19, 11:24 PM
    • #3
    • 19th May 19, 11:24 PM
    I have requested a M R which i sent in last week so i do hope they enjoy reading notes i sent, all in the poorest hand written english i could manage and 10 pages long. Will not get meany where but least i told them the truth yet again.
    Originally posted by rosie51
    It's not the assessors that read the MR letters, it's the decision makers.



    10 pages is rather long, i must admit. Straight to the point and precise, stating where you think you should have scored those points and your reasons why is better.


    Most MR decisions are copy and paste of the original decision so you'll most likely have to take it to Tribunal.



    DWP or the Tribunal won't be interested in any lies that may have been told in the report.
    • tighteningthebelt
    • By tighteningthebelt 20th May 19, 9:27 AM
    • 355 Posts
    • 3,452 Thanks
    tighteningthebelt
    • #4
    • 20th May 19, 9:27 AM
    • #4
    • 20th May 19, 9:27 AM
    What do you feel would be a fair wage for a fully trained and experienced health professional, working alone, and outside the full NHS remuneration package, in a job where everybody despises you?
    Just to clarify this isn't a job you can get straight out of uni (i.e. it is not comparable to a nurses staring salary on a band 5)
    Be great to hear what you think would be fair.
    Maybe you would advocate for untrained non-professional staff assessing your health and abilities? Maybe someone on minimum wage? Who was working delivering leaflets or at the petrol station last week?
    I'm sorry you're having a bad time with your assessment, and I really hope it goes well for you.
    "Victory is won not in miles but in inches. Win a little now, hold your ground, and later, win a little more" Louis L'Amour
    GC (annual budget) 314.88 left of 1800 on 19th October. (pretty sure I'm not going to make that target!!)
    24.9/65
    • Alice Holt
    • By Alice Holt 20th May 19, 6:44 PM
    • 3,403 Posts
    • 3,961 Thanks
    Alice Holt
    • #5
    • 20th May 19, 6:44 PM
    • #5
    • 20th May 19, 6:44 PM
    ... I have requested a M R which i sent in last week so i do hope they enjoy reading notes i sent, all in the poorest hand written english i could manage and 10 pages long. Will not get meany where but least i told them the truth yet again.
    Originally posted by rosie51
    Please be sensible about this.

    The purpose of the MR and the appeal process is to get an incorrect DWP decision overturned. It's not to vent your anger against the assessor.

    As poppy said most MR's are not successful (particularly so if illegible), and to continue you will need to take your appeal to the Tribunal Service (TS). You MR will appear in the evidence bundle and will form part of the evidence the TS will consider. A rambling 'green ink' diatribe will not help you win at appeal.

    If you want to succeed at appeal, don't rise the to the DWP's bait.
    Many assessments and decision makers rationalisations are risible -
    (https://www.buzzfeed.com/emilydugan/most-dwp-benefits-cases-which-reach-court-are-based-on-bad)
    - so make your appeal papers professional, concise, directly relating to the descriptors, and compelling.

    If you are not capable of this, then see if your local advice centre / CAB charity can help you.

    Try to rise above your anger, and don't play games with the DWP / appeal process. There will only be one loser (and it won't be the DWP).

    If you are going to take it seriously, here are some resources meriting careful reading:
    https://www.advicenow.org.uk/guides/how-win-pip-appeal
    https://www.benefitsandwork.co.uk/personal-independence-payment-pip/pip-points-system
    https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/benefits/sick-or-disabled-people-and-carers/pip/appeals/apply-to-tribunal/
    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/725533/pip-assessment-guide-part-2-assessment-criteria.pdf
    https://www.rethink.org/living-with-mental-illness/money-issues-benefits-employment/personal-independence-payment
    Last edited by Alice Holt; 20-05-2019 at 7:12 PM.
    Alice Holt Forest situated some 4 miles south of Farnham forms the most northerly gateway to the South Downs National Park.
    • Bananas123
    • By Bananas123 21st May 19, 5:29 AM
    • 312 Posts
    • 137 Thanks
    Bananas123
    • #6
    • 21st May 19, 5:29 AM
    • #6
    • 21st May 19, 5:29 AM
    scapegoats are expensive...
    • Pensioned Off
    • By Pensioned Off 24th May 19, 3:45 PM
    • 42 Posts
    • 99 Thanks
    Pensioned Off
    • #7
    • 24th May 19, 3:45 PM
    • #7
    • 24th May 19, 3:45 PM
    Goodness - a 32,000 is not actually that high... after tax and NI deductions it's down to 25,295.84.

    So.....

    When you consider that you can get 23,000 on benefits before the cap kicks in... and that is tax free (and equals about 28,600 as a taxable salary) then you can see that 32,000 after tax and NI contributions is just over 3,500 above that.

    Plus, factor in that PIP and DLA mean the cap doesn't apply then you could have a claimant paid more that the assessor in real terms after factoring in the tax that needs to be deducted.

    Enhanced rates of both elements of PIP gives a claimant an annual total of 7,740. So added together, the salary equivalent would be a fiver short of 40,000.

    So... stop getting all upset with your knee-jerk reactions and start thinking things through.
    • Pensioned Off
    • By Pensioned Off 24th May 19, 3:54 PM
    • 42 Posts
    • 99 Thanks
    Pensioned Off
    • #8
    • 24th May 19, 3:54 PM
    • #8
    • 24th May 19, 3:54 PM
    I have requested a M R which i sent in last week so i do hope they enjoy reading notes i sent, all in the poorest hand written english i could manage and 10 pages long. Will not get meany where but least i told them the truth yet again.
    Originally posted by rosie51
    What the heck do you think this will achieve other than making it more likely you will fail in your request?

    People like you actually make me really angry - you think you deserve everything for minimal effort and seem to despise everyone in 'the system'. Plus, this kind of thing wastes DWP time and holds everyone else up

    Wouldn't it just have been easier and more sensible to sit and type some bullet points and submit those for reconsideration? Instead you deliberately chose to use scrawl... well done you... great self-sabotage.

    I can't wait for your next rant where you have been refused and are moaning about having to go to a tribunal.
    • Talula1993
    • By Talula1993 13th Jun 19, 9:10 PM
    • 17 Posts
    • 21 Thanks
    Talula1993
    • #9
    • 13th Jun 19, 9:10 PM
    • #9
    • 13th Jun 19, 9:10 PM
    If you knew the role you would question if 32,000 was enough. Also the bonus is an employment ploy they dont exist and if they do they mean over time. The majority of assessors get vile behaviours, attitudes , rarely but sometimes physical abuse, have to work through their lunches and often finish late unpaid because assessment and documentation can last significantly longer than the time they are allocated to write it up. The turn over in staff is very high for these reasons. But yes, An untrained person with no knowledge of health who is willing to accept a very low salary for this job is far more suitable
    • GlasweJen
    • By GlasweJen 13th Jun 19, 10:35 PM
    • 6,900 Posts
    • 12,447 Thanks
    GlasweJen
    If you knew the role you would question if 32,000 was enough. Also the bonus is an employment ploy they dont exist and if they do they mean over time. The majority of assessors get vile behaviours, attitudes , rarely but sometimes physical abuse, have to work through their lunches and often finish late unpaid because assessment and documentation can last significantly longer than the time they are allocated to write it up. The turn over in staff is very high for these reasons. But yes, An untrained person with no knowledge of health who is willing to accept a very low salary for this job is far more suitable
    Originally posted by Talula1993
    That's funny, I know a few people who have taken on this job in the highlands. They're all nurses.

    It's paid higher than the standard NHS band 5, you're not doing heavy work like is expected of you on the wards and the hours are more family friendly.

    If the clients do kick off you get them escorted out the building and you get to twist the knife by having their benefits stopped. You have security to take you out to your car at night, there's no cleaning up pee, poo or blood.

    It's seen as a cushy number for those who are happy to sacrifice their superann for short term gains (higher wages).
    Bounts, Quidco, Shop and Scan, Receipt Hog, Costco Cashback, Debit card cashback

    NOT BUYING IT
    (unless it's on offer and can get my loyalty points)
    • Talula1993
    • By Talula1993 20th Jun 19, 7:26 PM
    • 17 Posts
    • 21 Thanks
    Talula1993
    Not true.

    I work accross assessment centres. Im not as assessor but know the role. I dont know of a single centre with security, never mind "escorts". However i do know of two people handing in their resignition, one from a physical assault the other from being located on social media and intimidated.

    Assessment training is objective. I often hear of people being upset by people but having to score them non the less as the evidence is there. Its just fear mongering to say otherwise. You get more srict people but absolutely not " i dont like you therefore you get nothing". And no amount of tales otherwise will convince me this practice routinely exsists as it just wouldnt be tollerated.

    The work is heavy and very mentally draining , the turn over and sickness in staff represents that.

    Not saying its harder than all nurses jobs. But in the same breath nurses should be paid higher so its not a good comparison.

    The system is far from perfect but the employees are just working by a criteria they are set. They work hard and deserve their salary.
    • Muttleythefrog
    • By Muttleythefrog 22nd Jun 19, 1:53 AM
    • 16,556 Posts
    • 31,881 Thanks
    Muttleythefrog
    The system is far from perfect but the employees are just working by a criteria they are set.
    Originally posted by Talula1993
    The problem is that they perhaps are not. They're corner cutting to save time. The first thing that has happened at all 3 F2F assessments I've had is a forced admission of that regarding at very least reading my information in advance as directed by handbook. Exposes have shown that training and application of it can be horribly wrong and certainly away from the criteria and how it is meant to be applied. Institutional targets are a long known concern too which no doubt affect behaviours and I wonder if the same is true of bonuses.

    The quality of reports for PIP and the WCA are regularly very substandard if not bordering on the unbelievable. The DWP's own measures reflect this. One reason is they, as you seem to suggest otherwise, do not properly study evidence. Basic errors such as even failure to document who attended are commonly reported... as well as shocking extrapolations.. deliberately selective and misleading 'facts' recorded.. and physical examination/measurements described that didn't occur or claim that such was refused by claimant when they had no reason to do so. I've given examples from my own case in the past. For example... I don't go shopping.. I do it online. This is stated to assessor. They record shops online - tick. Then later in the report they say 'has no difficulty shopping' - hmm okay... online true at a stretch. Then in justifying a descriptor choice... 'goes shopping' to imply I go out doing that - not true. In another example I spoke about my one friend I would stay in contact with who I used to work with. This is ultimately recorded as 'has many friends'... which is something absolutely contradicted in any reference to issue of social contact and indeed my testimony. This 'finding' was fortunately not used in descriptor selections. That was my WCA 9 years ago.. I await the report from one this week.

    I do expect the workload is heavy.. conveyor belt like... and the customer (patient) not always what you'd choose to face in a job. I wouldn't want to face me as a WCA assessor had to this week and despite his claim the assessment wouldn't take long I suspect after his 'writing up' of the report he'll have gone well beyond the usual parameters in mind for an assessment timescale. So I can buy your claim they often will run overtime when doing the job.

    But there is little getting away from it that this job is regarded as a step down into the basement by many medical professionals... an abandonment of principles.. and often for those too incapable of genuine clinical work... but offering stability of 9-5 hours.

    I certainly can accept your comment regarding physical assault and intimidation. I can't comment on security. There certainly seems to be spare staff ready to assist in crisis.

    One other observation... PIP assessments seem to surround a less hostile approach than for WCA. I would say this might be subtle in many ways... even like procedures for claiming taxi refund.

    On your other post regarding medical training. I question whether in many cases it has any value. So basic is the background of many assessors it may be more damaging than helpful. My PIP assessment 3 years ago as example... the nurse attributed all the identified disabilities to the wrong condition making me worry that if I did take the matter to tribunal the otherwise useful to my case document might be tossed in the bin. Unfortunately I'd also by then picked apart many other errors in the report... and inconsistencies.. such as claim I had difficulties washing my hands in the sink regarding one activity and then not regarding another even though there was no rational explanation for that at face value contradiction. In the end like my WCA report it took me to a good award.. I wasn't challenging or complaining about headline outcome but underlying flaws to get there.

    A now former acquaintance who I assisted in detail recently on WCA appeal... his assessor made some wild claims about his disabilities that contradicted medical reports from the month he was born and the decades since. He visited our house and needed great help up the few steps into it... yet the assessment report claimed he climbed stairs without difficulty. He has never been able to do that in his life due to the condition he was born with... the assessor claimed she saw him climb a set of stairs yet covert recording indicated clearly there had been none involved at the assessment centre. How does this happen? At tribunal.. the judge came out having been with the other panel members looking at the paperwork before calling him in... and apologised for him having to go through this and that he had won his case and that he did not need to endure his tribunal. The judge said to him the report the DWP relied on was not considered as evidence by them as it failed to meet any basic level of credibility.
    Last edited by Muttleythefrog; 22-06-2019 at 2:47 AM.
    "Do not attribute to conspiracy what can adequately be explained by incompetence" - rogerblack
    • Alice Holt
    • By Alice Holt 22nd Jun 19, 8:58 PM
    • 3,403 Posts
    • 3,961 Thanks
    Alice Holt
    The quality of reports for PIP and the WCA are regularly very substandard if not bordering on the unbelievable. The DWP's own measures reflect this. One reason is they, as you seem to suggest otherwise, do not properly study evidence. Basic errors such as even failure to document who attended are commonly reported... as well as shocking extrapolations.. deliberately selective and misleading 'facts' recorded.. and physical examination/measurements described that didn't occur or claim that such was refused by claimant when they had no reason to do so. I've given examples from my own case in the past. For example... I don't go shopping.. I do it online. This is stated to assessor. They record shops online - tick. Then later in the report they say 'has no difficulty shopping' - hmm okay... online true at a stretch. Then in justifying a descriptor choice... 'goes shopping' to imply I go out doing that - not true. In another example I spoke about my one friend I would stay in contact with who I used to work with. This is ultimately recorded as 'has many friends'... which is something absolutely contradicted in any reference to issue of social contact and indeed my testimony...

    ... At tribunal.. the judge came out having been with the other panel members looking at the paperwork before calling him in... and apologised for him having to go through this and that he had won his case and that he did not need to endure his tribunal. The judge said to him the report the DWP relied on was not considered as evidence by them as it failed to meet any basic level of credibility.
    Originally posted by Muttleythefrog
    Hi Muttley,
    Your post reflects what we see daily in my local Citizens Advice office. I, and a colleague, help clients with (mainly) disability benefit appeals.
    This financial year to date, all my colleague's appeal submissions have been successful at tribunal.
    In total we achieve annual outcomes for clients of c.650,000.

    Let's go back to the 100% of appeals allowed - that's after the MR process (so two DWP decision makers have looked at the claimants evidence and both refused an award). My colleague and I are rather unsettled by this state of affairs, as it shows just how flawed the DWP processes and the assessments can be.
    The standard of some assessments is truly appalling - our outcomes come about because as you say the tribunal judge determines that many of the reports the DWP rely on cannot be considered as evidence by the tribunal as it fails "to meet any basic level of credibility."
    Just in our town and for those claimants who can get our help, 650,000 worth of decisions overturned at appeal represents a lot of incompetently conducted assessments.

    Best wishes.
    Last edited by Alice Holt; 22-06-2019 at 9:00 PM.
    Alice Holt Forest situated some 4 miles south of Farnham forms the most northerly gateway to the South Downs National Park.
    • Muttleythefrog
    • By Muttleythefrog 23rd Jun 19, 11:29 AM
    • 16,556 Posts
    • 31,881 Thanks
    Muttleythefrog
    Hi Muttley,
    Your post reflects what we see daily in my local Citizens Advice office. I, and a colleague, help clients with (mainly) disability benefit appeals.....
    Originally posted by Alice Holt
    You're obviously doing a great job (including here too over the years). Much appreciated by many claimants I am sure! As I said to my GP when I last saw her (as it turned out the very same day a letter inviting me to WCA assessment was produced) the nightmare of the process would be reduced in half if you had confidence in their ability to do their job. I described it as being on a whole different level of fear and anxiety to that of my (now) wife's Visa applications including the first to start our life here together. She said she had many other patients saying similar. (Such a shame she doesn't fill in the ESA113 form better - she perhaps could have saved me and probably others elevated suffering!)

    Actually while I'm here... I don't like advertising and especially regarding my own stuff BUT... if you are bored waiting for dinner to bake...it's relevant but in Discussion Time.. https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=6016261
    Last edited by Muttleythefrog; 23-06-2019 at 12:02 PM.
    "Do not attribute to conspiracy what can adequately be explained by incompetence" - rogerblack
    • iammumtoone
    • By iammumtoone 23rd Jun 19, 11:39 AM
    • 6,096 Posts
    • 12,123 Thanks
    iammumtoone
    32K is that all they get paid I am gobsmacked!
    • Alice Holt
    • By Alice Holt 23rd Jun 19, 2:35 PM
    • 3,403 Posts
    • 3,961 Thanks
    Alice Holt
    32K is that all they get paid I am gobsmacked!
    Originally posted by iammumtoone
    That's 32k more than the volunteers at my local Citizens Advice who help our disabled and ill clients overturn ATOS's, Capita, Maximus etc inaccurate assessments and flawed DWP decisions at appeal.

    https://www.parliament.uk/business/committees/committees-a-z/commons-select/work-and-pensions-committee/news-parliament-2017/atos-maximus-capita-medicals-17-19/
    Last edited by Alice Holt; 23-06-2019 at 2:44 PM.
    Alice Holt Forest situated some 4 miles south of Farnham forms the most northerly gateway to the South Downs National Park.
    • deannatrois
    • By deannatrois 24th Jun 19, 6:23 AM
    • 6,407 Posts
    • 9,062 Thanks
    deannatrois
    I am afraid I too have to question the value of the 32k salary. My son had a very fair ESA assessment. The assessor accepted what he said and his ESA was continued without a problem (mind you, my son was curled in a ball on his chair quivering for most of the assessment, I had to speak for him).

    But my DLA assessment.., oh dear, apparently I can pick up my GSD and spaniel - spaniel is 18kg, GSD is well over 25kg.., together - I was seen doing this, apparently lol. I can walk perfectly well, shop without problems, I can use the internet so can concentrate so don't go into meltdowns and travel without problems. All very different to what I reported on paper and to the assessor. So many lies in the report, I was amazed. Assessor turned up half an hour early and tried to insist I saw her then, without my support worker being present (probably trying to fit in another assessment that day and get the bonus). Completely put me in a stressy mess. No compassion or understanding whatsoever. Even denied I got upset which I very visibly was at this point (and remember the assessment hadn't even started at this point).

    The report she issued said she was a nurse. I think the job type attracts some unpleasant characters who in another life would be the last people you'd think would have once been in the 'caring' professions.

    Undoubtedly there are some reasonable people doing this job, but if the pressures do exist to turn people down/reduce claims as we are told, the ones who want to do a truthful assessment won't last long, unfortunately.
    Last edited by deannatrois; 24-06-2019 at 6:27 AM.
    • Muttleythefrog
    • By Muttleythefrog 24th Jun 19, 1:05 PM
    • 16,556 Posts
    • 31,881 Thanks
    Muttleythefrog
    The assessor accepted what he said and his ESA was continued without a problem (mind you, my son was curled in a ball on his chair quivering for most of the assessment, I had to speak for him).
    Originally posted by deannatrois
    It's a shame he has to go through such - especially knowing there is a good chance report talks about the difficulties of coping with the interview/assessment and yet still the same may be repeated in the future.

    I've a pretty dark sense of humour... I hope nobody finds this inappropriate... but last week I had my ESA face to face. Because I was sat up against the back of the assessor's desk and shaking a lot his keyboard actually was vibrating on the desk causing quite a racket. I'm still waiting for a copy of the assessment report but if it doesn't mention trembling or the equivalent in observations/mental state exam it would be quite something.... I haven't listened to either covert or official recording of the assessment yet but it must've been evident.
    "Do not attribute to conspiracy what can adequately be explained by incompetence" - rogerblack
    • rosie51
    • By rosie51 18th Jul 19, 8:51 PM
    • 241 Posts
    • 1,109 Thanks
    rosie51
    What the heck do you think this will achieve other than making it more likely you will fail in your request?

    People like you actually make me really angry - you think you deserve everything for minimal effort and seem to despise everyone in 'the system'. Plus, this kind of thing wastes DWP time and holds everyone else up

    Wouldn't it just have been easier and more sensible to sit and type some bullet points and submit those for reconsideration? Instead you deliberately chose to use scrawl... well done you... great self-sabotage.

    I can't wait for your next rant where you have been refused and are moaning about having to go to a tribunal.
    Originally posted by Pensioned Off
    An update on my pip MR, i was a warded it after all. So despite your comments that i sabotaged my reconsideration, i was given a the lower amount for care i am still happy. Writing the letter with so many pages was daft but it worked. The assessor took nothing into account what i was telling her, however water under the bridge.
    Thank you for the comments posted.
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