ANPR final reminder notice

HardDoneBy62 · 13 October 2018 at 5:29PM

Hello, I received a final reminder PCN from NCP for a contravention that happened on 23 Aug 2018. This was the only notice received (on 8 October 2018), and NCP are asking for full payment of £100. I am keeper of the car, but not primary user. I have checked online and NCP have photographic evidence of car entering and leaving the London Underground station car park. I have checked with the driver and they had been to the station to drop someone off to their car which was parked there. It was late at night (nearly midnight) and the driver did not pay attention to the notice(s) as the intention was to drop off only. They however got talking and it was more then 15 minutes before they left the car park (nearly 45 minutes).
I admit there are probably a number of things that the driver could have done to avoid this, however they were not aware and did not read the signs.
In any case, I have only received a final notice and nothing prior to it hence no opportunity to supply driver details, appeal or pay a discounted charge. I have already said this online on their appeal form, but not heard anything. I am worried if this gets passed to their debt collector.
What are my options?
Does the driver have any? Such as they did not actually park and were only dropping someone off.
Any help or direction will be appreciated.

Redx · 13 October 2018 at 5:35PM

if the driver was on site then the driver should have paid, they did "park" even if it wasnt in a bay and even if the engine was running, they were stopped on a car park or bay or private land, no question

BUT

as keeper, unless the PPC can prove liability under POFA2012 they have missed the 14 day deadline for the NTK

I would have appealed using the blue text template in the NEWBIES FAQ sticky thread, then took it from there

if this is really an UNDERGROUND car park and so railway land, then POFA2012 does not apply and the pcn "times out" after 6 months as a penalty notice and if that is the case it can only be dealt with in MAGS court if bylaws apply (yes , it is complicated)

so I am assuming that bylaws apply and after 6 months the TOC can do nothing at all and there is no keeper liability

so if it isnt cancelled, plus if they fail to issue a POPLA code , string it out as keeper past 6 months

read other railway station threads, especially INDIGO ones, to see why

as I said , its complicated. but you did ask !!

Fruitcake · 13 October 2018 at 5:37PM

Start by reading the Sticky thread for NEWBIES.

If you appealed (when was this?) you should get a reply within 35 days and a PoPLA code if rejected. If byelaws apply then you have nothing to worry about as this will time out after six months as long as neither the driver or owner are revealed. The Keeper is neither of these.

Complain to the BPA and DVLA that The Keeper never go the original NTK. For some strange reason, more mail is lost from private prking companies than any other mail in the country. Hmmmm, funny that.

If you haven't had a PoPLA code by about day 38, then complain again to the BPA and DVLA.

Please also complain to your MP about this unregulated scam.

HardDoneBy62 · 13 October 2018 at 6:19PM

Thanks for quick reply @Redx and @Fruitcake. Yes it is complicated and that is why I asked. And I agree, the driver should have read and paid. I can only put it down to new driver, and not realising charges apply 24/7.
I guess NCP will probably say they sent the original notice before the final reminder. I have been through all my mail and never received one.
I also think they will try and get driver information from me. But from what you are saying, I am not obliged to give this and after 6 months, the PCN gets cancelled anyway.
Can they however start proceeding before this to either get driver details or pay the fine either through court or bailiffs?
Can they still pursue for payment through MAG court after 6 months?
I appealed on 6 th Oct 2018, stating that I was not the driver and have not received any prior notices giving me opportunity to pay discounted rate or lodge an appeal earlier.
Sorry but can’t find the templates on here, but will look later in NEWBIES faq as suggested. For now I will wait for their reply.

Fruitcake · 13 October 2018 at 6:37PM

Sushah wrote: »

Thanks for quick reply @Redx and @Fruitcake. Yes it is complicated and that is why I asked. And I agree, the driver should have read and paid. I can only put it down to new driver, and not realising charges apply 24/7.
I guess NCP will probably say they sent the original notice before the final reminder. I have been through all my mail and never received one.
I also think they will try and get driver information from me. But from what you are saying, I am not obliged to give this and after 6 months, the PCN gets cancelled anyway.
Can they however start proceeding before this to either get driver details or pay the fine either through court or bailiffs?
Can they still pursue for payment through MAG court after 6 months?
I appealed on 6 th Oct 2018, stating that I was not the driver and have not received any prior notices giving me opportunity to pay discounted rate or lodge an appeal earlier.
Sorry but can’t find the templates on here, but will look later in NEWBIES faq as suggested. For now I will wait for their reply.

It doesn't get cancelled after six months if byelaws apply. It does mean that it becomes statute barred and cannot be pursued through the courts after that period.

The PPC cannot instigate proceedings through the magistrate's court. Only the landowner or TOC can do this, but the PPC is hamstrung by the DPA and cannot pass on the keeper details.

In any case, The Keeper is not liable where byelaws apply, only the owner or the driver. The DVLA only have registered keeper details, not owner or driver details. They are three different people as far as the law is concerned.

The only way the PPC can get driver or owner details is if you are stupid enough to tell them. You are not required to tell them and nobody, not even a judge can force you.

Bailliffs and CCJs cannot happen unless someone loses in court, fails to pay, gets a judgement, and fails to pay that. Debt collectors can be ignored. Post 4 of the NEWBIES explains why it is safe to do so.

Redx · 13 October 2018 at 6:43PM

NCP "may" have sent an NTK, or maybe not

the appeal has been done , see what happens

bylaws may apply, so as I siad, it "times out" after 6 months if its bylaws, plus the TOC would have to issue a penalty notice to you , not NCP

PEOPLE ALWAYS SEEM TO WORRY ABOUT BAILIFFS ETC, BUT WITHOUT A COURT ORDER , NOBODY WILL BE CALLING ROUND - its an urban myth

MAGS COURT deals with bylaws

CIVIL COURT deals with a civil dispute

it doesnt get "cancelled" , but if its a bylaws penalty it cannot be enforced after 6 months, it can remain on file however , but is statute barred

DO NOT reveal who was driving unless you have an extremely good reason for doing so, so assume not unless you really hate the driver and want them punished

no chance of MAGS court after 6 months - dead duck time for the TOC (not NCP)

Civil courts cannot deal with bylaws cases, not when its a bylaws issue and MAGS court rules apply

the NEWBIES FAQ sticky thread has the single blue text template in post #1 , you cannot miss it

see if NCP come back with popla, which I doubt

HardDoneBy62 · 13 October 2018 at 10:38PM

Thanks very much. Gives me a bit more confidence. I don’t hate the driver for sure, but I do think they should have been a bit more savvy even though it was 11:45pm. There are many mitigating circumstances, but as I have read in other posts they don’t count for anything, so my only chance is not to reveal the driver and string it out for 6 months NCP will need to refer it to the landowner (I’m assuming LU owns it).
My main concern was if it gets passed to their debt collectors as I think these companies are very good at bullying people into paying. Is there anything I can or need to do to stop it getting that far or take any counter action if it does get to that stage. Sorry just weighing my options if the worst were to happen.

KeithP · 13 October 2018 at 10:48PM

Sushah wrote: »

My main concern was if it gets passed to their debt collectors as I think these companies are very good at bullying people[STRIKE] into paying[/STRIKE].

I've corrected that for you.

They are very good a bullying, and you need to be very good at ignoring them.

There is comprehensive guidance on how to deal with debt collectors' letters in post #4 of the NEWBIES thread, but in summary, ignore debt collectors letters.

beamerguy · 13 October 2018 at 11:05PM

Sushah

You need to send NCP a SAR for all letters sent,
all photos taken, etc

Search NCP Privacy on Google, to find who to write the SAR to, and attach your V5C (and NOT say who was driving!).

HardDoneBy62 · 14 October 2018 at 12:20AM

Thanks @KeithP.
Thanks @beamerguy, how will a SAR help? And should I wait for their reply to my appeal before doing this?

worried_jim · 14 October 2018 at 12:25AM

Sushah wrote: »

Thanks @KeithP.
@Beamerguy, What is a SAR?

If I had checked earlier, I would probably have submitted a stronger appeal. Now I will wait for their response and check back here before doing anything.

But thanks for the advice so far. It is so helpful.

A subject access request (SAR) is simply a written request made by or on behalf of an individual for the information which he or she is entitled to ask for under section 7 of the Data Protection Act 1998 (DPA). The request does not have to be in any particular form.

ANPR final reminder notice

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