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  • FIRST POST
    • tibalytipples
    • By tibalytipples 26th Jun 19, 10:46 AM
    • 9Posts
    • 0Thanks
    tibalytipples
    are smart meters a scam
    • #1
    • 26th Jun 19, 10:46 AM
    are smart meters a scam 26th Jun 19 at 10:46 AM
    Someone at work said that the reason eon are trying to force everyone onto smart meters is because once you are on a smart meter you can not switch supplier

    Is he right or not?
    Thanks
    TT
Page 2
    • Gerry1
    • By Gerry1 2nd Jul 19, 11:20 AM
    • 255 Posts
    • 187 Thanks
    Gerry1
    But a powerwall charge might be similar, so they don't necessarily know it's a car. And if someone wants to disguise a car charge, just charge it slowly off a conventional socket, it'll look like a long shower!

    I find it baffling that anyone considers the energy industry capable of such analysis. They struggle with the logistics of switching a customer from one supplier to another.
    Originally posted by Talldave
    It would take your more than four nights to charge a Tesla from an E7 13A socket (assuming you don't drive it in the meantime), so good luck with that.

    A powerwall won't significantly increase your overall consumption, but an EV will: 10000 miles per year will double it. So it doesn't need clever analysis, simply charging more for higher usage (cf. stamp duty bands) will rip you off quite nicely: up to 2000kWh p.a. offpeak might be 8p/kWh, but units above 2000 might be charged at the day rate or even more.

    Similarly, half hourly power readings could charge normal rates for 'normal' usage (say up to say 5kW) but apply surcharges when you charge your Tesla at 50kW. And if there's not sufficient generating capacity then load shedding will kick in, so your long journey the next morning won't be possible. Even worse, your EV smart meter can tell your car to supply energy to your house or the grid, so that's a double whammy. Why do you think government assisted EV charging points now have to have smart meters?

    You can rest assured that smart metering won't do you any favours as a consumer.
    • Talldave
    • By Talldave 2nd Jul 19, 12:03 PM
    • 295 Posts
    • 152 Thanks
    Talldave
    .... Even worse, your EV smart meter can tell your car to supply energy to your house or the grid, so that's a double whammy. Why do you think government assisted EV charging points now have to have smart meters?

    You can rest assured that smart metering won't do you any favours as a consumer.
    Originally posted by Gerry1

    The use of an EV as a temporary store for the grid is an advantage of smart grid technology. I configure my car to be ready at 8am. During the evening and overnight, the grid can top it up and drain it again as it wishes - provided I get a better deal on my EV kWh in return for them having the privilege of using it that way.
    • Owain Moneysaver
    • By Owain Moneysaver 2nd Jul 19, 12:13 PM
    • 9,857 Posts
    • 12,163 Thanks
    Owain Moneysaver
    Similarly, half hourly power readings could charge normal rates for 'normal' usage (say up to say 5kW) but apply surcharges when you charge your Tesla at 50kW. And if there's not sufficient generating capacity then load shedding will kick in, so your long journey the next morning won't be possible.
    Originally posted by Gerry1
    Nor will your early morning tea, or anything else, as current 'smart' meters are all-or-nothing and only load shed by disconnecting your entire house.
    A kind word lasts a minute, a skelped erse is sair for a day.
    • Owain Moneysaver
    • By Owain Moneysaver 2nd Jul 19, 12:15 PM
    • 9,857 Posts
    • 12,163 Thanks
    Owain Moneysaver
    The use of an EV as a temporary store for the grid is an advantage of smart grid technology. I configure my car to be ready at 8am. During the evening and overnight, the grid can top it up and drain it again as it wishes - provided I get a better deal on my EV kWh in return for them having the privilege of using it that way.
    Originally posted by Talldave
    That's fine until you find you have to make an unplanned journey at 4 am and your EV has just supplied its charge to the grid and is sitting powerless.
    A kind word lasts a minute, a skelped erse is sair for a day.
    • Gerry1
    • By Gerry1 2nd Jul 19, 12:35 PM
    • 255 Posts
    • 187 Thanks
    Gerry1
    The use of an EV as a temporary store for the grid is an advantage of smart grid technology. I configure my car to be ready at 8am. During the evening and overnight, the grid can top it up and drain it again as it wishes - provided I get a better deal on my EV kWh in return for them having the privilege of using it that way.
    Originally posted by Talldave
    As Sir Humphrey would say, that's very brave of you.

    I doubt whether the grid will choose to charge EVs in the evening when people are cooking meals, using 3kW kettles, having electric showers, watching TV etc. Smart EV charging will probably be restricted to the traditional E7 overnight hours.

    That's fine, until everyone gets up and all the toasters, kettles and showers get switched on, and the grid raids your EV to meet the high demand. Suddenly, your EV's range has shrunk and you won't be making that long journey without an inconvenient and expensive stop for a top up.

    And what will all those extra charge / discharge cycles do to your battery's capacity after a few years?
    • Houbara
    • By Houbara 2nd Jul 19, 12:41 PM
    • 4,684 Posts
    • 3,270 Thanks
    Houbara
    It has been confirmed on numerous occasions by various Secretaries of State (e.g. see Hansard from Jan 2012 and Oct 2017) and by Ofgem that no-one will be forced to have a smart meter.

    What evidence to the contrary do you have?
    Originally posted by Gerry1
    I can give evidence that the original Energy secretary in charge of the commision of the smart meter roll out made smart meters MANDATORY , just like virtually every other country in the world has done
    .This will return at sometime in the near future, it has to because there are too many people like you who have mistakenly been given the choice of selecting what flavour meter , which is not owned by the occupier, is installed in the property .
    Ed Miliband was the Labour energy minister in 2008 who set the roll out in motion with no choices to the occupants to refuse a smart meter or face disconnection.
    I know this for certain because I work for BG as a meter reader and knew how the meter fitters were installing them at a fast rate with absolutely no refusals.everyone accepted them come what may.This was in 2008 and lasted until they lost the election and the Tories messed it up by a weird decision allowing people the choice between smart and dumb .
    He also made yet another massive blunder to ignore what the rest of the world were doing in using the distribution network s to install them, using just one or two similar meter models.
    Uniquely instead he chose to force the Big Six suppliers to be in charge of the installations, and they certainly have inflated the costs by each selecting a mish mash of different meters incompatible with all the other suppliers in some instances..
    This automatically inflated the costs .
    If there is an election this year which sees the Labour government in charge, expect a return to mandatory smart meter installations..Joe Public will have had his moment of glory in ordering the suppliers around
    Last edited by Houbara; 02-07-2019 at 3:58 PM.
    • Talldave
    • By Talldave 2nd Jul 19, 1:03 PM
    • 295 Posts
    • 152 Thanks
    Talldave
    As Sir Humphrey would say, that's very brave of you.

    I doubt whether the grid will choose to charge EVs in the evening when people are cooking meals, using 3kW kettles, having electric showers, watching TV etc. Smart EV charging will probably be restricted to the traditional E7 overnight hours.

    That's fine, until everyone gets up and all the toasters, kettles and showers get switched on, and the grid raids your EV to meet the high demand. Suddenly, your EV's range has shrunk and you won't be making that long journey without an inconvenient and expensive stop for a top up.

    And what will all those extra charge / discharge cycles do to your battery's capacity after a few years?
    Originally posted by Gerry1

    Battery technology is way ahead of the energy suppliers' ability to do any of this stuff, so it's not something I worry about.


    As someone commented on another thread, they have a smart meter but their supplier is still only billing quarterly. We should not underestimate the suppliers' level of incompetence. SMETS1/2 meters will be coming up for replacement long before anything smart happens to our grid!
    • oliverbrown
    • By oliverbrown 2nd Jul 19, 5:59 PM
    • 89 Posts
    • 48 Thanks
    oliverbrown
    If there is an election this year which sees the Labour government in charge, expect a return to mandatory smart meter installations..Joe Public will have had his moment of glory in ordering the suppliers around
    Originally posted by Houbara
    It's actually the politicians who are ordering the suppliers around. I'm someone who wrote to my MP to object to mandatory smart meter installations, and given that they made it optional it would seem I was not the only one.
    • Houbara
    • By Houbara 2nd Jul 19, 6:29 PM
    • 4,684 Posts
    • 3,270 Thanks
    Houbara
    It's actually the politicians who are ordering the suppliers around. I'm someone who wrote to my MP to object to mandatory smart meter installations, and given that they made it optional it would seem I was not the only one.
    Originally posted by oliverbrown
    They were not optional under the labour government .From 2008 to 2010 when the Tories took over , British Gas were installing thousands of them all around the UK. Now they have installed more smart meters than the rest of the suppliers put together
    BG started installing smart meters in very large numbers years before the foreign suppliers ,EDF, Eon, Npower ,Scottish Power reluctantly got their act together when OFGEM ordered them to get a move on.
    Your complaint would have absolutely no bearing on the issue because just like all the other meters installed in properties and businesses since the dawn of metering, they were mandatory, smart or dumb and BG installing smart meters for those two years met no opposition from the republic. Not once as meter reader for BG did
    I hear any objections at all in my work .
    The Republic of Ireland, Italy, France, Spain, Portugal have all either completed the roll out or are well advanced and they were all installed mandatory.
    The UK is the odd one out and they had better get ready to have the right to object to a smart meter ended very soon.
    SMETS1/2 meters now being installed will all stay smart upon switching..so no excuses now are needed
    • oliverbrown
    • By oliverbrown 2nd Jul 19, 6:33 PM
    • 89 Posts
    • 48 Thanks
    oliverbrown
    Your complaint would have absolutely no bearing on the issue
    Originally posted by Houbara
    If my request to my MP, and requests like mine, had "no bearing" on whether smart meters were mandatory, then why did the government make them optional?
    • Houbara
    • By Houbara 2nd Jul 19, 6:47 PM
    • 4,684 Posts
    • 3,270 Thanks
    Houbara
    If my request to my MP, and requests like mine, had "no bearing" on whether smart meters were mandatory, then why did the government make them optional?
    Originally posted by oliverbrown
    The new Tory Energy minister was an idiot. He panicked over a few snowflakes making a loud noise.The Germans were also complaining and the Swedes got in on the act as well, but no one else in Europe were concerned
    Its exactly the same with fracking where a tiny number with big mouths try and speak for the rest of us who think its a good idea..
    How come Ed Miliband with the Labour party had no problems with objectors ?. For 2 years whilst labour were in power they were being slotted in at a very fast rate by BG meter fitters without a word of complaint.
    Last edited by Houbara; 02-07-2019 at 6:49 PM.
    • oliverbrown
    • By oliverbrown 2nd Jul 19, 6:51 PM
    • 89 Posts
    • 48 Thanks
    oliverbrown
    He panicked over a few snowflakes making a loud noise.
    Originally posted by Houbara
    "Snowflakes" like me then, who made their objections known to their representatives in parliament. In that case we did have a bearing on it.
    • AndyCF
    • By AndyCF 2nd Jul 19, 7:57 PM
    • 345 Posts
    • 653 Thanks
    AndyCF
    Nor will your early morning tea, or anything else, as current 'smart' meters are all-or-nothing and only load shed by disconnecting your entire house.
    Originally posted by Owain Moneysaver
    Assuming the meter is inside the property and the cupboard its in is owned by the householder (as in its not an external box outside owned by the supplier etc, the white box things) , then ahem perhaps *accidentally* placing some form of Faraday caging around said cupboard, or even just the door.

    This is partly in jest and partly theoretically curious to see if it would work or not. I suspect it would in a fashion but for those reading I don't have any intention of trying it.

    I suppose 'secure' ( lol ) comms could be done via the mains grid anyways to each individual meter, negating the use of radio to instruct a meter to "do xyz" , I suspect said comms would be inbound only though. I could be wrong, usually am.
    • benny5
    • By benny5 2nd Jul 19, 8:10 PM
    • 137 Posts
    • 11 Thanks
    benny5
    Could I ask the E-ON rep a question?


    What happens when the battery on the Gas Meter expires?



    From what I’ve discovered, the meter stops reporting readings and the display fails leaving the user/supplier with no record of usage. In that scenario you have, at least, continuity of supply.


    If you’re unlucky your gas supply is switched off when the battery dies.



    Please can you confirm the position?
    • jbuchanangb
    • By jbuchanangb 2nd Jul 19, 8:29 PM
    • 425 Posts
    • 150 Thanks
    jbuchanangb
    I bought a house already equipped with smart meter of some sort. As my supplier, (I switched 17 days after moving in) knows nothing of this meter, the only use I make of them is that I use the in-home device (or in my case in-garage device) to obtain the readings, which I enter monthly onto my energy supplier's web site. Works a treat. Doesn't seem to be a scam.
    • Houbara
    • By Houbara 2nd Jul 19, 8:54 PM
    • 4,684 Posts
    • 3,270 Thanks
    Houbara
    Could I ask the E-ON rep a question?


    What happens when the battery on the Gas Meter expires?



    From what Iíve discovered, the meter stops reporting readings and the display fails leaving the user/supplier with no record of usage. In that scenario you have, at least, continuity of supply.


    If youíre unlucky your gas supply is switched off when the battery dies.



    Please can you confirm the position?
    Originally posted by benny5
    Prepayment gas meters, smart or dumb are designed to shut down the supply when the battery fails. Sometimes the valve does not shut off the supply.. It is far better for it to shut off supply completely with a dud battery than for it to remain open where many occupants would not report it to the supplier .
    • benny5
    • By benny5 3rd Jul 19, 9:22 AM
    • 137 Posts
    • 11 Thanks
    benny5
    Prepayment gas meters, smart or dumb are designed to shut down the supply when the battery fails. Sometimes the valve does not shut off the supply.. It is far better for it to shut off supply completely with a dud battery than for it to remain open where many occupants would not report it to the supplier .
    Originally posted by Houbara

    While that functionality may appear desirable what happens when your supply is terminated in the middle of winter, no heating, hot water or cooking. You are at the mercy of the efficiency of your supplier to rectify the situation.

    No thanks. I think Iíll stick with my Ďdumbí meter.
    .
    • AndyCF
    • By AndyCF 3rd Jul 19, 9:57 AM
    • 345 Posts
    • 653 Thanks
    AndyCF
    From a safety / electrical point of view as the gas meter cannot have a permanent electrical supply , it cannot work the same way as an electric meter aka a relay in that case held, by this I mean there's not going to be enough long time juice in a gas meter battery to hold a solenoid valve open 24/7

    What I would suspect is it acts as a kind of toggle, a bit like say car central locking where a pulse one way opens it, and another way (swapping polarity really) closes it.

    This way it does not need a permanent 'feed' to the internal gas valve. When the electronics onboard the meter detect a low battery voltage, something like this probably happens:

    For the sake of arguments sake, lets say the battery is 12v (I realise its probably about 3 or 5 however but a larger number is easier for the purpose of an example!)

    When it reaches 10v-11v the 'battery' icon is likely to appear on the display, if it has one. If it does not then the next bit is likely to happen anyway:

    When it reaches < 10v the 'Low Batt or Help!' message will likely be on all the time, minus the backlight as its only an LCD usually

    When it reaches < about 6v it will signal 'close' while it still has enough juice to do this

    I would suspect the cases where a supply remains are possibly due to freak cases where there was not enough 'juice' left to actually tell the valve to close.

    ^ The above is just my 'own thinking' on how it works really , not from research merely from my own thoughts so please read it that way.

    Note: If the battery is only really say 3.2v or something anyway then the 'threshold' for each erm 'stage' is going to probably be something like < 2.8v then < 2.2v or so. Maybe.
    • benny5
    • By benny5 5th Jul 19, 2:58 PM
    • 137 Posts
    • 11 Thanks
    benny5
    Could I ask the E-ON rep a question?


    What happens when the battery on the Gas Meter expires?



    From what Iíve discovered, the meter stops reporting readings and the display fails leaving the user/supplier with no record of usage. In that scenario you have, at least, continuity of supply.


    If youíre unlucky your gas supply is switched off when the battery dies.



    Please can you confirm the position?
    Originally posted by benny5

    Is the E-ON Rep on leave?
    • Hardup49
    • By Hardup49 8th Jul 19, 10:11 AM
    • 29 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    Hardup49
    I do not really want a Smart meter
    I have had problems for a few years now with unexpected fluctuations in both Gas and Electricity usage shown on bills even though my usage remains more or less constant, certainly they do not vary enough in the same period of each year for some of the big differences I have seen. I have always provided meter readings myself at the correct intervals. It is only when I see the final bill and compare with previous bills that I notice the differences and I suspect I am not alone there. I have also found it impossible to get my previous provider or my current provider to actually look into the matter by checking meters, etc. So that does not suggest to me that Smart Meters are going to make things any better, especially following some of the reports I have heard about them. If there can be fluctuations showing on my bills now and I cannot convince suppliers to check them out now, then if I have a Smart Meter fitted and there are ever any fluctuations on bills after that then I feel sure they definitely won't look into any of those queries! It is all very well providing us with "choice" of supplier (in other areas as well as Energy) but I appear to have very little choice in practice especially when I cannot get hold of anyone on the phone to discuss anything! I have also noticed over recent years with some companies (of all kinds) that it is impossible to send a simple email query or make a phone call to ask a simple question - all contact options seem to have the heading "Complaint". Possibly because these days, due to the wide choice that we have and the difficulties in actually contacting these companies, most contact nowadays probably would be in the form of a complaint! Progress???
    Hardup49
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