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    • DesperateDans
    • By DesperateDans 13th Jun 18, 8:37 PM
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    DesperateDans
    Section 21 Notice - Is it invalid?
    • #1
    • 13th Jun 18, 8:37 PM
    Section 21 Notice - Is it invalid? 13th Jun 18 at 8:37 PM
    Hi, I'm DesperateDans and I am.... Desperate.

    I am a private tenant and have been served with a Section 21 notice 2 months ago. The landlady expects me to move out on the date given, but I will not be doing so.

    I am getting assistance from the council on rehousing, but it is happening very slowly due to the waiting lists etc. I can't give too much information on here either as I don't want to possibly be identified by my Landlady.

    But, my curiosity got the better of me and I have been looking into the requirements of Section 21. I was not served with a gas safety certificate at the (renewal) of my last tenancy 18 months ago. It lapsed and 6 months later the landlady wants me out, for no fault of my own.

    The gas safety check was done, but I am unsure of when. I was not given a copy of it and again, it expired (I've been about 3 months without a GSC) and it's just been done 2 weeks ago - 2 months after the Section 21 notice was served on me. I still have not been given a copy of the certificate, the plumber refused to give me a copy.

    I also was not served with an EPC before I was given the Section 21 notice.

    The tenancy is an Assured Shorthold and is now on a periodic basis.

    From what I read, the scenario I describe above (No GSC served, No valid GSC in place and no EPC served) means I am in posession of an invalid Section 21 notice.

    My questions -

    1) Is my take on the situation correct?
    2) If so, is it worth bringing this to the Landladies notice now, or waiting until it goes to court and telling the judge?

    Thank you in advance
Page 1
    • HampshireH
    • By HampshireH 13th Jun 18, 8:58 PM
    • 991 Posts
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    HampshireH
    • #2
    • 13th Jun 18, 8:58 PM
    • #2
    • 13th Jun 18, 8:58 PM
    Just to clarify you didnt receive an EPC when you moved in? How long have you lived at the property?
    • DesperateDans
    • By DesperateDans 13th Jun 18, 9:01 PM
    • 4 Posts
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    DesperateDans
    • #3
    • 13th Jun 18, 9:01 PM
    • #3
    • 13th Jun 18, 9:01 PM
    I didn't get an EPC when I moved in, which was in 2010, but the tenancy is renewed every year (last one was 01/2017 - 01/2018)

    I was given the EPC for the first time with the Section 21 notice.
    • theartfullodger
    • By theartfullodger 13th Jun 18, 9:09 PM
    • 9,839 Posts
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    theartfullodger
    • #4
    • 13th Jun 18, 9:09 PM
    • #4
    • 13th Jun 18, 9:09 PM
    If EPC served WITH s21 probably invalid, if served 1 second earlier OK.


    Check s21 with
    https://markprichard.co.uk/content/documents/180408-Section-21-checker-tool.pdf
    • DesperateDans
    • By DesperateDans 13th Jun 18, 9:18 PM
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    DesperateDans
    • #5
    • 13th Jun 18, 9:18 PM
    • #5
    • 13th Jun 18, 9:18 PM
    Thank you for that.

    The EPC was in the envelope that the S21 came in.

    The GSC still has not been issued to me.
    • G_M
    • By G_M 13th Jun 18, 9:34 PM
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    G_M
    • #6
    • 13th Jun 18, 9:34 PM
    • #6
    • 13th Jun 18, 9:34 PM
    Not sure I agree with artful about the EPC. I suspect a court would accept service of the EPC togeter with the S21 - but it's moot.

    If the gas report is out of date though, then the S21 is invalid.

    Check artful's link:

    https://markprichard.co.uk/content/documents/180408-Section-21-checker-tool.pdf


    I don't believe there was a requirement to provide an EPC in 2010 was there? Having an elderly moment! But even if there was, provided one is rovided before (or with???) the S21 it is valid.


    My questions -

    2) If so, is it worth bringing this to the Landladies notice now, or waiting until it goes to court and telling the judge?
    Well that's up to you!

    What is your relationship with her?
    What is you aim?
    Last edited by G_M; 13-06-2018 at 9:38 PM.
    • DesperateDans
    • By DesperateDans 13th Jun 18, 9:53 PM
    • 4 Posts
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    DesperateDans
    • #7
    • 13th Jun 18, 9:53 PM
    • #7
    • 13th Jun 18, 9:53 PM
    My aim is to stay as long as possible as alternative accommodation is looking very unlikely at the moment due to my situation.

    I don't think there was a requirement in 2010, but as the tenancy was renewed each year, is that not a "New Tenancy"?
    • silvercar
    • By silvercar 13th Jun 18, 10:32 PM
    • 37,958 Posts
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    silvercar
    • #8
    • 13th Jun 18, 10:32 PM
    • #8
    • 13th Jun 18, 10:32 PM
    My aim is to stay as long as possible as alternative accommodation is looking very unlikely at the moment due to my situation.

    I don't think there was a requirement in 2010, but as the tenancy was renewed each year, is that not a "New Tenancy"?
    Originally posted by DesperateDans
    Happy to be corrected, but I thought EPCs were required when advertising a property. As an existing tenant, the property wouldn't be marketed, so even if you have a new tenancy there may not be a requirement for an EPC.
    • G_M
    • By G_M 13th Jun 18, 11:18 PM
    • 45,564 Posts
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    G_M
    • #9
    • 13th Jun 18, 11:18 PM
    • #9
    • 13th Jun 18, 11:18 PM
    No S21 would be valid if an EPC had not been provided free of charge to a tenant.


    That is separate from the requirement for an EPC to be supplied when marketing a property for sale or rent.
    • FBaby
    • By FBaby 14th Jun 18, 7:31 AM
    • 17,000 Posts
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    FBaby
    The issue is the gas certificate, the law is that it should have been issued to you when you moved in (not at renewal) and then within 28 days of each one done there after.

    I lost track when you got one and not. If the above doesn't apply, the S21 is invalid.

    Caridon Property Ltd v Monty Shooltz was an interesting case relevant to yours.
    • Ozzuk
    • By Ozzuk 14th Jun 18, 8:18 AM
    • 1,456 Posts
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    Ozzuk
    You do realise you'll be out at some point? If your landlord got it wrong this time they will get it right the next. And if they end up taking you to court then I think they can come after you for costs (not sure on this though).

    Might be better to work with your landlord - if you council aren't housing you what are you going to do? If it's something that will need a reference then again, you'll want to work with your landlord.
    • G_M
    • By G_M 14th Jun 18, 11:10 AM
    • 45,564 Posts
    • 54,793 Thanks
    G_M
    Y......if they end up taking you to court then I think they can come after you for costs (not sure on this though).

    .....
    Originally posted by Ozzuk
    Correct........
    • theartfullodger
    • By theartfullodger 14th Jun 18, 2:47 PM
    • 9,839 Posts
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    theartfullodger
    If you find s21 is invalid, don't tell landord but wait until court write to you. That way you gain more time
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