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County court business centre, help please

24

Comments

  • Umkomaas
    Umkomaas Posts: 41,345 Forumite
    First Anniversary Name Dropper First Post Photogenic
    Coupon-mad wrote: »
    No idea why you are barking up that tree. It's not even important.

    As an aside to the regulars, how is there FIVE full pages of live threads today alone? Almost as if new posters are circling and over-burdening the forum?

    I was active for a good part of yesterday and evening - complete one post, five more threads appear, many wanting detailed assistance with court defences. With some newbies it’s like wading through treacle, explain in words of one syllable and they still struggle to ‘get it’.

    And there was one who thought that if he continued to do nothing, if it came to the crunch of a court claim, regulars would be just waiting to write his defence for him. Yeah, right!

    News of our victories against PPC world is causing more and more to come for help. It’s becoming almost unreal at times. Swamped by our own success!

    Thank goodness for the NEWBIES sticky - much of which we almost lost last week (were you aware?).
    Please note, we are not a legal advice forum. I personally don't get involved in critiquing court case Defences/Witness Statements, so unable to help on that front. Please don't ask. .

    I provide only my personal opinion, it is not a legal opinion, it is simply a personal one. I am not a lawyer.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.

    Private Parking Firms - Killing the High Street
  • togoboy
    togoboy Posts: 16 Forumite
    edited 19 October 2017 at 4:50PM
    Ok bit of background on my case, First contact from CEL was on the 09/06/2015 demanding £100 for my stay at the ibis Hotel in Cardiff. where i stayed on the 19/05/2015, this time line is more than the 14 days? .
    I did contact the Hotel Manager and got email proof of my stay on that date and a receipt of payment, He also gave me CEL address and i sent copies to them to prove i was a paying guest,

    CEL replied it is my responsibility to log my car inn, had many more letters and ignored them until i Recived a C.C.B.C DEMAND for £356, amount of claim £281.05, Court fee £25, Legal representative at court £50.
    All on behalf of Civil Enforcement Limited,

    Have read many Cel threads on here and have drafted this, could some one please tel me if this is good enough, thanks in advance.

    Civil Enforcement Limited
    V
    Defendant

    I, Defendant, deny I am liable to the Claimant for the entirety of the claim for each of the following reasons:

    1. The driver of the car was a paying guest at the ibis Hotel at the time of the ticket being issued.

    2. The Claim Form issued on the 09/10/2017 by Civil Enforcement Limited was not correctly filed under The Practice Direction as it was not signed by a legal person but signed by “Civil Enforcement Limited”.

    3. This Claimant has not complied with pre-court protocol. And as an example as to why this prevents a full defence being filed at this time, a parking charge can be for trespass, breach of contract or a contractual charge. All these are treated differently in law and require a different defence. The wording of any contract will naturally be a key element in this matter, and a copy of the alleged contract has never been provided to the Defendant.

    (a) There was no compliant ‘Letter before County Court Claim’, under the Practice Direction.

    (b) This is a speculative serial litigant, issuing a large number of identical 'draft particulars'. The badly mail-merged documents contain very little information.

    (c) The Schedule of information is sparse of detailed information.

    (d) The Claim form Particulars were extremely sparse and divulged no sufficient detail. The Defendant is not clear why the charge arose, what the alleged contract was; nothing that could be considered a fair exchange of information. The Claim form Particulars did not contain any evidence of contravention or photographs.

    e) The Defence therefore asks the Court to strike out the claim as having no reasonable prospect of success as currently drafted.

    f) Alternatively, the Defendant asks that the Claimant is required to file Particulars which comply with Practice Directions and include at least the following information;

    i. A copy of any contract it is alleged was in place (e.g. copies of signage)

    ii. How any contract was concluded (if by performance, then copies of signage maps in place at the time)

    iii. Whether keeper liability is being claimed, and if so copies of any Notice to Driver / Notice to Keeper

    iv. Whether the Claimant is acting as Agent or Principal, together with a list of documents they will rely on in this matter

    v. If charges over and above the initial charge are being claimed, the basis on which this is being claimed

    vi. If Interest charges are being claimed, the basis on which this is being claimed

    g) Once these Particulars have been filed, the Defendant asks for reasonable time to file another defence.

    4. The Claimant failed to meet the Notice to Keeper obligations of Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012. Absent such a notice served within 14 days of the parking event and with fully compliant statutory wording, this Claimant is unable to hold me liable under the strict ‘keeper liability’ provisions.

    There can be no 'presumption' by the claimant that the keeper was the driver. Henry Greenslade, lead adjudicator of POPLA in 2015 and an eminent barrister and parking law expert stated that “However keeper information is obtained; there is no ‘reasonable presumption’ in law that the registered keeper of a vehicle is the driver. Operators should never suggest anything of the sort.”

    Schedule 4 also states that the only sum a keeper can be pursued for (if Schedule 4 is fully complied with, which it was not, and if there was a 'relevant obligation' and relevant contract' fairly and adequately communicated, which there was not) is the sum on the Notice to Keeper. They cannot pluck another sum from thin air and bolt that on as well when neither the signs, nor the NTK, nor the permit information mentioned a possible £356,05 for outstanding debt and damages.

    5. The Claimant has added unrecoverable sums to the original parking charge. It is believed that the employee who drew up the paperwork is remunerated and the particulars of claim are templates, so it is simply not credible that £50 'legal representative’s (or even admin) costs' were incurred.

    6. This case can be distinguished from ParkingEye v Beavis [2015] UKSC 67 (the Beavis case) which was dependent upon an undenied contract, formed by unusually prominent signage forming a clear offer and which turned on unique facts regarding the location and the interests of the landowner. Strict compliance with the BPA Code of Practice (CoP) was paramount and Mr Beavis was the driver who saw the signs and entered into a contract to pay £85 after exceeding a licence to park free. None of this applies in this material case.

    7. In the absence of any proof of adequate signage that contractually bound the Defendant then there can have been no contract and the Claimant has no case.

    a) The Claimant is put to strict proof that at the time of the alleged event they had both advertisement consent and the permission from the site owner to display the signs.

    b) In the absence of strict proof I submit that the Claimant was committing an offence by displaying their signs and therefore no contract could have been entered into between the driver and the Claimant.

    c) Inadequate signs incapable of binding the driver - this distinguishes this case from the Beavis case:

    (i) Sporadic and illegible (charge not prominent nor large lettering) of site/entrance signage - breach of the POFA 2012 Schedule 4 and the BPA Code of Practice and no contract formed to pay any clearly stated sum.

    (ii) Non existent ANPR 'data use' signage - breach of ICO rules and the BPA Code of Practice.

    (iii) It is believed the signage was not lit and any terms were not transparent or legible; this is an unfair contract, not agreed by the driver and contrary to the Consumer Rights Act 2015 in requiring a huge inflated sum as 'compensation' from by an authorised party using the premises as intended.

    (iv) No promise was made by the driver that could constitute consideration because there was no offer known nor accepted. No consideration flowed from the Claimant.

    (v) The signs are believed to have no mention of any debt collection additional charge, which cannot form part of any alleged contract.

    d) BPA CoP breaches - this distinguishes this case from the Beavis case:

    (i) the signs were not compliant in terms of the font size, lighting or positioning.

    (ii) the sum pursued exceeds £100.

    (iii) there is / was no compliant landowner contract.


    8. No standing - this distinguishes this case from the Beavis case:

    It is believed Civil Enforcement do not hold a legitimate contract at this car park. As an agent, the Claimant has no legal right to bring such a claim in their name which should be in the name of the landowner.Even if they satisfy the court that they do have a contract with the Hotel, there can be no 'legitimate interest' in pursuing a charge when the Hotel Manager had assured us that they would get the ticket cancelled, since the car user was staying the hotel as a patron.

    9. The Beavis case confirmed the fact that, if it is a matter of trespass (not breach of any contract), a parking firm has no standing as a non-landowner to pursue even nominal damages.

    10. The charge is an unenforceable penalty based upon a lack of commercial justification. The Beavis case confirmed that the penalty rule is certainly engaged in any case of a private parking charge and was only disengaged due to the unique circumstances of that case, which do not resemble this claim.

    The Defendant denies any liability whatsoever to the Claimant in any matter and asks the Court to note that the Claimant has:

    (a) failed to disclose any cause of action in the incorrectly filed Claim Form issued on 09 OCT 2017.
    (b) Sent a template, well-known to be generic cut and paste 'Particulars' of claim relying on irrelevant case law (Beavis) which ignores the fact that this Claimant cannot hold registered keepers liable in law, due to their own choice of non-POFA documentation.

    11. The additional particulars of claim are signed purportedly by Ashley Cohen, Mr Cohen was reported to sign off witness statements under London Councils POPLA on behalf of landowners, for CEL POPLA cases falsely stating authority. It is submitted that he is a director of another company, Bemrose Mobile Limited which supplies the pay by phone payment methods for parking. Mr. Cohen was a former director of Creative Contracts Ltd but has since resigned. Mr. Cohen is therefore put to strict proof the capacity and authority he has in signing such statements.

    The vague Particulars of Claim disclose no clear cause of action. The court is invited to strike out the claim of its own volition as having no merit and no reasonable prospects of success.

    I confirm that the above facts and statements are true to the best of my knowledge and recollection.

    Defendant
  • Redx
    Redx Posts: 38,084 Forumite
    First Anniversary Name Dropper First Post Photogenic
    edited 19 October 2017 at 3:39PM
    seems to me that although you state its a statement of truth at the bottom, its clear that some of it is not true, so are you sure you proof read the above ? because you are signing a legal document that a judge will see

    why ?

    date of claim is incorrect as it states june 2015

    there are paragraphs about POFA2012 yet you say that this was disputed a long time ago and in your summary it hints to me that the driver was "outed"

    POFA2012 does not apply to drivers

    and that is without reading it carefully

    if I am correct then it not good enough to just copy and paste without proof reading , then expecting regulars to go through thousands of words looking for issue

    this thread and posted defence deals with the missing POC due to new protocols that came in 19 days ago, yet your defence above only alludes to no POC and doesnt seem to emphasise these new protocols

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5729157
  • togoboy
    togoboy Posts: 16 Forumite
    Thanks for taking the time to read and reply and all errors noted thank you,
    just attempted another, date corrected and new protocols from 19 days ago added

    Civil Enforcement Limited
    V
    Defendant

    I, Defendant, deny I am liable to the Claimant for the entirety of the claim for each of the following reasons:

    1. The driver of the car was a paying guest at the ibis Hotel at the time of the ticket being issued.

    2. The Claim Form issued on the 09/10/2017 by Civil Enforcement Limited was not correctly filed under The Practice Direction as it was not signed by a legal person but signed by “Civil Enforcement Limited”.

    3. This Claimant has not complied with pre-court protocol. And as an example as to why this prevents a full defence being filed at this time, a parking charge can be for trespass, breach of contract or a contractual charge. All these are treated differently in law and require a different defence. The wording of any contract will naturally be a key element in this matter, and a copy of the alleged contract has never been provided to the Defendant.

    (a) There was no compliant ‘Letter before County Court Claim’, under the Practice Direction.

    (b) This is a speculative serial litigant, issuing a large number of identical 'draft particulars'. The badly mail-merged documents contain very little information.

    (c) The Schedule of information is sparse of detailed information.

    (d) The Claim form Particulars were extremely sparse and divulged no sufficient detail. The Defendant is not clear why the charge arose, what the alleged contract was; nothing that could be considered a fair exchange of information. The Claim form Particulars did not contain any evidence of contravention or photographs.

    e) The Defence therefore asks the Court to strike out the claim as having no reasonable prospect of success as currently drafted.

    f) Alternatively, the Defendant asks that the Claimant is required to file Particulars which comply with Practice Directions and include at least the following information;

    i. A copy of any contract it is alleged was in place (e.g. copies of signage)

    ii. How any contract was concluded (if by performance, then copies of signage maps in place at the time)

    iii. Whether keeper liability is being claimed, and if so copies of any Notice to Driver / Notice to Keeper

    iv. Whether the Claimant is acting as Agent or Principal, together with a list of documents they will rely on in this matter

    v. If charges over and above the initial charge are being claimed, the basis on which this is being claimed

    vi. If Interest charges are being claimed, the basis on which this is being claimed

    g) Once these Particulars have been filed, the Defendant asks for reasonable time to file another defence.

    4. The Claimant failed to meet the Notice to Keeper obligations of Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012. Absent such a notice served within 14 days of the parking event and with fully compliant statutory wording, this Claimant is unable to hold me liable under the strict ‘keeper liability’ provisions.

    There can be no 'presumption' by the claimant that the keeper was the driver. Henry Greenslade, lead adjudicator of POPLA in 2015 and an eminent barrister and parking law expert stated that “However keeper information is obtained; there is no ‘reasonable presumption’ in law that the registered keeper of a vehicle is the driver. Operators should never suggest anything of the sort.”

    Schedule 4 also states that the only sum a keeper can be pursued for (if Schedule 4 is fully complied with, which it was not, and if there was a 'relevant obligation' and relevant contract' fairly and adequately communicated, which there was not) is the sum on the Notice to Keeper. They cannot pluck another sum from thin air and bolt that on as well when neither the signs, nor the NTK, nor the permit information mentioned a possible £356,05 for outstanding debt and damages.

    5. The Claimant has added unrecoverable sums to the original parking charge. It is believed that the employee who drew up the paperwork is remunerated and the particulars of claim are templates, so it is simply not credible that £50 'legal representative’s (or even admin) costs' were incurred.

    6. This case can be distinguished from ParkingEye v Beavis [2015] UKSC 67 (the Beavis case) which was dependent upon an undenied contract, formed by unusually prominent signage forming a clear offer and which turned on unique facts regarding the location and the interests of the landowner. Strict compliance with the BPA Code of Practice (CoP) was paramount and Mr Beavis was the driver who saw the signs and entered into a contract to pay £85 after exceeding a licence to park free. None of this applies in this material case.

    7. This Claimant has not complied with pre-court protocol (as outlined in the new Pre Action Protocol for Debt Claims, 1 October 2017). As an example as to why this prevents a full defence being filed at this time, a parking charge can be for trespass, breach of contract or a contractual charge. All these are treated differently in law and require a different defence. The wording of any contract will naturally be a key element in this matter, and a copy of the alleged contract has never been provided to the Defendant.


    8. No standing - this distinguishes this case from the Beavis case:

    It is believed Civil Enforcement do not hold a legitimate contract at this car park. As an agent, the Claimant has no legal right to bring such a claim in their name which should be in the name of the landowner.Even if they satisfy the court that they do have a contract with the Hotel, there can be no 'legitimate interest' in pursuing a charge when the Hotel Manager had assured us that they would get the ticket cancelled, since the car user was staying the hotel as a patron.

    9. The Beavis case confirmed the fact that, if it is a matter of trespass (not breach of any contract), a parking firm has no standing as a non-landowner to pursue even nominal damages.

    10. The charge is an unenforceable penalty based upon a lack of commercial justification. The Beavis case confirmed that the penalty rule is certainly engaged in any case of a private parking charge and was only disengaged due to the unique circumstances of that case, which do not resemble this claim.

    The Defendant denies any liability whatsoever to the Claimant in any matter and asks the Court to note that the Claimant has:

    (a) failed to disclose any cause of action in the incorrectly filed Claim Form issued on 09 OCT 2017.
    (b) Sent a template, well-known to be generic cut and paste 'Particulars' of claim relying on irrelevant case law (Beavis) which ignores the fact that this Claimant cannot hold registered keepers liable in law, due to their own choice of non-POFA documentation.

    11. The additional particulars of claim are signed purportedly by Ashley Cohen, Mr Cohen was reported to sign off witness statements under London Councils POPLA on behalf of landowners, for CEL POPLA cases falsely stating authority. It is submitted that he is a director of another company, Bemrose Mobile Limited which supplies the pay by phone payment methods for parking. Mr. Cohen was a former director of Creative Contracts Ltd but has since resigned. Mr. Cohen is therefore put to strict proof the capacity and authority he has in signing such statements.

    The vague Particulars of Claim disclose no clear cause of action. The court is invited to strike out the claim of its own volition as having no merit and no reasonable prospects of success.

    I confirm that the above facts and statements are true to the best of my knowledge and recollection.

    Defendant
  • Redx
    Redx Posts: 38,084 Forumite
    First Anniversary Name Dropper First Post Photogenic
    seems better except if the driver has been identified months ago then why is POFA2012 in there ?

    either the KEEPER is defending the court claim and partly relying on POFA2012, or the driver has been identified and so POFA2012 should not be in there

    ie:- paragraph 4

    its one or the other
  • Lamilad
    Lamilad Posts: 1,412 Forumite
    First Anniversary Photogenic Name Dropper First Post
    Defence looks good to go once you've addressed the above point from Redx
  • togoboy
    togoboy Posts: 16 Forumite
    Ok thanks Redx and Lamilad for taking the time to look over it.

    here we go 3rd time lucky i hope,

    Civil Enforcement Limited
    V
    Defendant

    I, Defendant, deny I am liable to the Claimant for the entirety of the claim for each of the following reasons:

    1. The driver of the car was a paying guest at the ibis Hotel at the time of the ticket being issued.

    2. The Claim Form issued on the 09/10/2017 by Civil Enforcement Limited was not correctly filed under The Practice Direction as it was not signed by a legal person but signed by “Civil Enforcement Limited”.

    3. This Claimant has not complied with pre-court protocol. And as an example as to why this prevents a full defence being filed at this time, a parking charge can be for trespass, breach of contract or a contractual charge. All these are treated differently in law and require a different defence. The wording of any contract will naturally be a key element in this matter, and a copy of the alleged contract has never been provided to the Defendant.

    (a) There was no compliant ‘Letter before County Court Claim’, under the Practice Direction.

    (b) This is a speculative serial litigant, issuing a large number of identical 'draft particulars'. The badly mail-merged documents contain very little information.

    (c) The Schedule of information is sparse of detailed information.

    (d) The Claim form Particulars were extremely sparse and divulged no sufficient detail. The Defendant is not clear why the charge arose, what the alleged contract was; nothing that could be considered a fair exchange of information. The Claim form Particulars did not contain any evidence of contravention or photographs.

    e) The Defence therefore asks the Court to strike out the claim as having no reasonable prospect of success as currently drafted.

    f) Alternatively, the Defendant asks that the Claimant is required to file Particulars which comply with Practice Directions and include at least the following information;

    i. A copy of any contract it is alleged was in place (e.g. copies of signage)

    ii. How any contract was concluded (if by performance, then copies of signage maps in place at the time)

    iii. Whether keeper liability is being claimed, and if so copies of any Notice to Driver / Notice to Keeper

    iv. Whether the Claimant is acting as Agent or Principal, together with a list of documents they will rely on in this matter

    v. If charges over and above the initial charge are being claimed, the basis on which this is being claimed

    vi. If Interest charges are being claimed, the basis on which this is being claimed

    g) Once these Particulars have been filed, the Defendant asks for reasonable time to file another defence.


    4. The Claimant has added unrecoverable sums to the original parking charge. It is believed that the employee who drew up the paperwork is remunerated and the particulars of claim are templates, so it is simply not credible that £50 'legal representative’s (or even admin) costs' were incurred.

    5. This case can be distinguished from ParkingEye v Beavis [2015] UKSC 67 (the Beavis case) which was dependent upon an undenied contract, formed by unusually prominent signage forming a clear offer and which turned on unique facts regarding the location and the interests of the landowner. Strict compliance with the BPA Code of Practice (CoP) was paramount and Mr Beavis was the driver who saw the signs and entered into a contract to pay £85 after exceeding a licence to park free. None of this applies in this material case.

    6. This Claimant has not complied with pre-court protocol (as outlined in the new Pre Action Protocol for Debt Claims, 1 October 2017). As an example as to why this prevents a full defence being filed at this time, a parking charge can be for trespass, breach of contract or a contractual charge. All these are treated differently in law and require a different defence. The wording of any contract will naturally be a key element in this matter, and a copy of the alleged contract has never been provided to the Defendant.


    7. No standing - this distinguishes this case from the Beavis case:

    It is believed Civil Enforcement do not hold a legitimate contract at this car park. As an agent, the Claimant has no legal right to bring such a claim in their name which should be in the name of the landowner.Even if they satisfy the court that they do have a contract with the Hotel, there can be no 'legitimate interest' in pursuing a charge when the Hotel Manager had assured us that they would get the ticket cancelled, since the car user was staying the hotel as a patron.

    8. The Beavis case confirmed the fact that, if it is a matter of trespass (not breach of any contract), a parking firm has no standing as a non-landowner to pursue even nominal damages.

    9. The charge is an unenforceable penalty based upon a lack of commercial justification. The Beavis case confirmed that the penalty rule is certainly engaged in any case of a private parking charge and was only disengaged due to the unique circumstances of that case, which do not resemble this claim.

    The Defendant denies any liability whatsoever to the Claimant in any matter and asks the Court to note that the Claimant has:

    (a) failed to disclose any cause of action in the incorrectly filed Claim Form issued on 09 OCT 2017.
    (b) Sent a template, well-known to be generic cut and paste 'Particulars' of claim relying on irrelevant case law (Beavis) which ignores the fact that this Claimant cannot hold registered keepers liable in law, due to their own choice of non-POFA documentation.

    10. The additional particulars of claim are signed purportedly by Ashley Cohen, Mr Cohen was reported to sign off witness statements under London Councils POPLA on behalf of landowners, for CEL POPLA cases falsely stating authority. It is submitted that he is a director of another company, Bemrose Mobile Limited which supplies the pay by phone payment methods for parking. Mr. Cohen was a former director of Creative Contracts Ltd but has since resigned. Mr. Cohen is therefore put to strict proof the capacity and authority he has in signing such statements.

    The vague Particulars of Claim disclose no clear cause of action. The court is invited to strike out the claim of its own volition as having no merit and no reasonable prospects of success.

    I confirm that the above facts and statements are true to the best of my knowledge and recollection.

    Defendant
  • Redx
    Redx Posts: 38,084 Forumite
    First Anniversary Name Dropper First Post Photogenic
    looks ok to me and seems a true account to the judge of how a customer of the hotel has the permission from the landowner to park due to being a legitimate overnight paying customer
  • Marktheshark
    Marktheshark Posts: 5,841 Forumite
    First Post Combo Breaker First Anniversary
    Issue a Letter before Claim to the hotel informing them you are been taken to court by their parking agents for parking at the hotel as instructed by the hotel and you will be entering a counter claim and defence of indemnity to the hotel as you had a primary contract directly with the hotel to park and they could have prevented the loss by informing their agents to cancel the claim. .

    You may get someone to pay attention .
    I do Contracts, all day every day.
  • togoboy
    togoboy Posts: 16 Forumite
    thank you all for your help and a special thanks to Redx who has helped me from the start,
    I will keep this updated to the conclusion lets hope it goes in my favour .
    just one question when would you advise to send this defence ?, now or closer to the dead line,
    and would you recommend posting ? or printing off signing and dating , scanning back to pc and sending by email, ?
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