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  • FIRST POST
    jillytb
    Howdens Traders passing on discount - Scam??
    • #1
    • 24th Oct 09, 11:01 PM
    Howdens Traders passing on discount - Scam?? 24th Oct 09 at 11:01 PM
    Is the whole traders can get you your kitchen at discount from Howdens a scam, how come you get different sets of paperwork and does anyone here have the final invoice from their trader/builder and if so does it differ from the quote and more importantly what you paid.
    I think this company is letting rogue builders scam people like me as how else can you get your original quote for say 6k, like me, then invoice for trader, when you pay first of all and then Howdens only deal with trader after beause they are the account holder but I got hold of a very very nice person who sent me the final invoice paid by my builder for EXACTLY the same items and he paid 2,000 less, the same branch manager processed both sets of paperwork..... I am certain this is not right, but do Howdens support traders doing this, is this a company that give licence to builders to pocket money in a deceptive and what I think amounts to criminal way??? I feel sick and basically robbed! My builder looked around and saw a single Mum and was so charming, whilst seeing signs!?
Page 3
    • Tom_Jones
    • By Tom_Jones 13th Aug 11, 1:15 PM
    • 1,494 Posts
    • 2,340 Thanks
    Tom_Jones
    Ah Howden's thats another matter. Should the manager of the store really have supplied documents for his customers case in a civil matter, should the manager have been willing to give a statement at court as a Howden's manager without his employers knowledge.....

    as for the judgement, now proved civil I can got to the CPS for a criminal prosecution.
    Originally posted by jillytb

    And what are you going to prosecute the builder for what, making a profit ?

    How did you get the information on the price your builder paid Howdens ? it appears by illegal means, which would be a criminal offence under Data protection laws.

    Let's see the kitchen cabinet maker makes a profit when he sells to Howdens, Howdens make a profit when he sells to the builder, so why should you not expect a builder to make a profit when he sells to you ? It is none of your buisness how much profit he makes.

    I find it a bit unbelievable that you have one a court case against your builder in this matter, and you need to provide proof that you indeed have.
  • Alan M
    I find it a bit unbelievable that you have one a court case against your builder in this matter, and you need to provide proof that you indeed have.
    Originally posted by Tom_Jones

    If there has indeed been a court case won, I have a feeling there is far more to this than has been explained.

    I know profit is a dirty work in the UK, but I wasn't aware they'd made it illegal quite yet.

  • Leif
    And what are you going to prosecute the builder for what, making a profit ?

    How did you get the information on the price your builder paid Howdens ? it appears by illegal means, which would be a criminal offence under Data protection laws.

    Let's see the kitchen cabinet maker makes a profit when he sells to Howdens, Howdens make a profit when he sells to the builder, so why should you not expect a builder to make a profit when he sells to you ? It is none of your buisness how much profit he makes.

    I find it a bit unbelievable that you have one a court case against your builder in this matter, and you need to provide proof that you indeed have.
    Originally posted by Tom_Jones
    Whilst many of your statements are reasonable, what seems to have happened here is the builder said "I will fit a kitchen for you for a fee of X, and you will pay 6K for the kitchen" and then supplied paperwork supporting the claimed kitchen price. In fact the OP paid X + 2K for the fitting, and 4K for the kitchen, and the fitter was fraudulently claiming to have bought the kitchen for 6K. And he provided paperwork appearing to support the claim.

    I agree that had the builder said "I can provide and fit this kitchen for Y" then the cost of the kitchen is irrelevant. It is up to the customer to agree or walk. But what we seem to have here is deception.

    As others have said, exact details of the ruling are important.
  • jillytb
    Profit is the amount received for services in excessive of the original cost but when deceit is used to gain the difference it becomes fraud. To doubt that a court case based on a builder misleading a consumer for his own personal gains could be won by a consumer really raises a question over the judgements of those that do.
  • neonpoppy
    If there has indeed been a court case won, I have a feeling there is far more to this than has been explained.

    I know profit is a dirty work in the UK, but I wasn't aware they'd made it illegal quite yet.
    Originally posted by Alan M
    Making a profit by misleading your customer and misinforming them should be illegal no?
  • Alan M
    Profit is the amount received for services in excessive of the original cost but when deceit is used to gain the difference it becomes fraud. To doubt that a court case based on a builder misleading a consumer for his own personal gains could be won by a consumer really raises a question over the judgements of those that do.
    Originally posted by jillytb
    Great, so can we see the details of the case?

  • Alan M
    Making a profit by misleading your customer and misinforming them should be illegal no?
    Originally posted by neonpoppy
    Actually I don't think that is criminal unless specifically covered by regulations such as Financial Services Authority etc.

    This is why we're all waiting with baited breath for the details of the OP's court case and on what grounds the OP feels they will be able to undertake a criminal prosecution on the builder.

    Unitl we're provided with details of the case and the ruling all of this is simply speculation.
    Last edited by Alan M; 13-08-2011 at 5:41 PM.

  • jillytb
    I will come back and post them. I came on here for support and advice a long time ago and was great mainly with sympathetic and sound replies and that is why I returned now to say I have followed through on what I said I was going to do and won. I was also greeted with some very cynical views then and I am pleased to see their views are still the same, profit is a dirty word...... When I have dealt with the second element I will return but the transcripts of the case will be provided to the relevant authority first.

    I had not realised any update would cause such disbelief in one or two people simply not able to understand and accept that a builder misled me and I took him to court for good reason. I won and Alan M people do actually win cases against fraudsters not against people who conduct their business in a professional manner. Revisit my definition between profit and fraud..... Fraud is the dirty word to me!
    Thanks all others for agreeing that what I have done is a positive thing.

    I will post the details as and when the other matter has been investigated for sure.
  • jillytb
    And Alan M the FSA is limited to financial services. You do make me "chuckle"!
    • olly300
    • By olly300 13th Aug 11, 7:53 PM
    • 14,312 Posts
    • 13,632 Thanks
    olly300
    I will come back and post them. I came on here for support and advice a long time ago and was great mainly with sympathetic and sound replies and that is why I returned now to say I have followed through on what I said I was going to do and won. I was also greeted with some very cynical views then and I am pleased to see their views are still the same, profit is a dirty word...... When I have dealt with the second element I will return but the transcripts of the case will be provided to the relevant authority first.
    Originally posted by jillytb
    It may be your writing style but what in concise language did you take your builder to court on? Breach of contract? Obtaining money by deception? Misrepresentation?
    I'm not cynical I'm realistic

    (If a link I give opens pop ups I won't know I don't use windows)
  • Leif
    I am shocked that people who work in the business think that the fraudulent behaviour described by the OP is normal business practice. It is blatant dishonesty.

    As already said, the FSA regulations financial services. There is a clue in the name.
  • neonpoppy
    Actually I don't think that is criminal unless specifically covered by regulations such as Financial Services Authority etc.

    This is why we're all waiting with baited breath for the details of the OP's court case and on what grounds the OP feels they will be able to undertake a criminal prosecution on the builder.

    Unitl we're provided with details of the case and the ruling all of this is simply speculation.
    Originally posted by Alan M
    But do you think it a good thing that people can mislead and misinform to make a profit and do you think it should be legal?

    Felt very dodgy to me. Which is why I steered well clear of Howdens.
    • Tom_Jones
    • By Tom_Jones 13th Aug 11, 8:07 PM
    • 1,494 Posts
    • 2,340 Thanks
    Tom_Jones
    Profit is the amount received for services in excessive of the original cost but when deceit is used to gain the difference it becomes fraud. To doubt that a court case based on a builder misleading a consumer for his own personal gains could be won by a consumer really raises a question over the judgements of those that do.
    Originally posted by jillytb
    You still haven't answered how you got hold of the paperwork regarding what the fitter paid Howdens, it would be without doubt illegal and if you took a criminal prosecution against me that would be my first line of defence.

    Howdens will always provide a quote and pricing without any discounts applied and this is probably what the fitter supplied to the OP.

    The judge was very remiss in NOT allowing the Howdens manager to state his point of view IMHO.

    If the OP is happy with the kitchen then why be so pedantic as to go after the builder for maybe a 2k profit, after all if he had paid 6k for the kitchen he could well have charged more for the fitting.
    • olly300
    • By olly300 13th Aug 11, 8:15 PM
    • 14,312 Posts
    • 13,632 Thanks
    olly300
    You still haven't answered how you got hold of the paperwork regarding what the fitter paid Howdens, it would be without doubt illegal and if you took a criminal prosecution against me that would be my first line of defence.

    Howdens will always provide a quote and pricing without any discounts applied and this is probably what the fitter supplied to the OP.

    The judge was very remiss in NOT allowing the Howdens manager to state his point of view IMHO.

    If the OP is happy with the kitchen then why be so pedantic as to go after the builder for maybe a 2k profit, after all if he had paid 6k for the kitchen he could well have charged more for the fitting.
    Originally posted by Tom_Jones
    There is information the OP isn't providing.
    I'm not cynical I'm realistic

    (If a link I give opens pop ups I won't know I don't use windows)
  • jillytb
    Olly300 I can only apologise for my writing style but I am not from this country. I think most people on here have gathered what I have stated and why I won. I am regretting ever coming on here now as to be told that I must write "in concise english" is an insult as I have worked and studied hard all my life to improve my writing, reading and speaking.

    The judge was in no way remiss and I think until i post again perhaps you should save your judgements until then. The judge didnt appear to think it was pedantic of me at all hence he found in my favour.

    It seems to me Tom_Jones and Alan M seem to think otherwise and condone builders misleading consumers - theft is not pedantic!

    to Olly300 I had four claims against the builder and the judge found in favour of all four.

    If more people like me go up against builders for this sort of practice it will perhaps prevent their unscrupoulus (sorry not sure spelling is correct Olly300) behaviour.

    I would agree with Vince Cable when he once touted the idea that their needs to be regulations for builders.

    Regulations for fraud or theft? No because they are crimes.
  • milliebear00001
    At the risk of adding the circles being pedalled round here...it sounds to me like you're talking about two different situations.

    Firstly, the standard practice of builders quoting a price for a fully supplied and fitted kitchen to a customer, where the price of the supply is not necessarily the same as the price they pay themselves to Howdens. Here, the builder includes a 'mark up' on the supply cost so they make profit. As a customer, I don't much care where the mark up is (in the supply or the fitting cost) as long as I get a competitive quote for the supply and fit of a new kitchen.

    Secondly, there is the situation I suspect is being described by the OP, which is that the builder has claimed to be supplying her kitchen at cost price - i.e. the price he pays Howdens. Instead of being up front and telling her he isn't passing on his full discount to her, he has lied and invented false paperwork to back up his lie.

    The two situations are completely different because of the lie and falsified paperwork.

    The upshot is that the builder should have been upfront when asked, and stated that he takes a mark up on the cost of supplying the kitchen as the customer is unable to buy such a product at trade prices and so is still benefiting from his relationship with Howdens. The customer of course, could have avoided all of this by making sure she got several quotes from different Howdens fitters. She would then have known what a competitive price for supply of a Howdens kitchen actually is.
  • Alan M
    But do you think it a good thing that people can mislead and misinform to make a profit and do you think it should be legal?

    Felt very dodgy to me. Which is why I steered well clear of Howdens.
    Originally posted by neonpoppy

    What I think and in fact any opinion I may have is irrelevant.

    I was using the FSA as an example of a particular industry that is goverened by it's own very specific set of rules (laws) in direct answer to your question of what I consider is legal, moral, ethical or otherwise.

    The kitchen wholesale supply industry will be covered by general consumer regulation which will deal with anything that could be construed as underhand or in fact illegal.

  • Alan M
    And Alan M the FSA is limited to financial services. You do make me "chuckle"!
    Originally posted by jillytb
    I'm glad I made you chuckle, see post #58 for a description of why I picked the FSA as an example of governing body that extends controls to a specific industry in answer to another posters question.

    It seems as English isn't your first language we lost something in translation there, I wasn't for one moment suggesting the Financial Service Authority governs Howdens business practice.

    Once you've managed to stop your chuckling we'd be delighted for ANY information on the court case and details of the criminal charge you expect your builder/supplier to apprehended under.

    It should be quite easy to scan the papers in and remove all personal information.

    Understand this is not some sort of personal crusade but is genunine interest as someone who runs a wholesale import/distribution business as to what the court found.
    Last edited by Alan M; 13-08-2011 at 10:36 PM.

  • Leif
    To digress a bit, the financial services industry is very dodgy. My late mother when in her late seventies was advised to invest in a shares ISA by a major high street bank. Shocking, and totally inappropriate. And against the rules. I have dealt with financial advisors, and I would not trust them one inch. They are a bunch of devious deceitful so and sos. I dealt with one, and his first act was to find out what investments I had. The reason is simple. He wanted to register as my financial advisor, thereby getting the commission from my investments. Do they tell you that? No. But that is normal behaviour. We now have a Scottish Widows pension at work. The advisors want to know about our investments so they can advise us properly. I will tell them to take a leap. I have made a nice sum by investing my money myself, mostly in tracker funds which pay no commission to leaches, sorry I mean financial advisors. And oddly enough financial advisors do not recommend tracker funds. I wonder why ...

    Good tradesmen are a godsend, but we do need to prevent misrepresentation.
  • Alan M
    Olly300 I can only apologise for my writing style but I am not from this country. I think most people on here have gathered what I have stated and why I won. I am regretting ever coming on here now as to be told that I must write "in concise english" is an insult as I have worked and studied hard all my life to improve my writing, reading and speaking.

    The judge was in no way remiss and I think until i post again perhaps you should save your judgements until then. The judge didnt appear to think it was pedantic of me at all hence he found in my favour.

    It seems to me Tom_Jones and Alan M seem to think otherwise and condone builders misleading consumers - theft is not pedantic!

    to Olly300 I had four claims against the builder and the judge found in favour of all four.

    If more people like me go up against builders for this sort of practice it will perhaps prevent their unscrupoulus (sorry not sure spelling is correct Olly300) behaviour.

    I would agree with Vince Cable when he once touted the idea that their needs to be regulations for builders.

    Regulations for fraud or theft? No because they are crimes.
    Originally posted by jillytb
    Lets clear something up here.

    I own and run a wholesale import distribution business that sells predominantly to trade only (in the construction industry).

    I know the law, I'm legally obliged to know the law as I'm the person accountable if my company breaks it.

    The OP has won a court case, the details of which are of extreme interest to me personally and to other posters on here generally.

    I am awaiting with extreme interest details of the case in question.

    What I am most interested in is the potential criminal prosecution that the OP is suggesting will take place, who has undertaken anything of a criminal nature, what the offense was and what the expected charge will be.

    Can we have some facts please?

    I'd like you to highlight anywhere in this thread where I have condoned "builders misleading consumers" to use your words.

    I am interested in fact, not hearsay, do you have the ability to actually provide any fact?
    Last edited by Alan M; 13-08-2011 at 10:56 PM.

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