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  • FIRST POST
    • MSE Megan F
    • By MSE Megan F 9th Jan 18, 8:19 PM
    • 271Posts
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    MSE Megan F
    MSE News: Credit and debit card charges banned from Saturday - what you need to know
    • #1
    • 9th Jan 18, 8:19 PM
    MSE News: Credit and debit card charges banned from Saturday - what you need to know 9th Jan 18 at 8:19 PM
    From Saturday you should no longer be charged a fee for opting to pay via credit or debit card - but companies will still be able to add booking or admin fees as long as they also apply to other forms of payment...
    Read the full story:
    'Credit and debit card charges banned from Saturday - what you need to know'

    Click reply below to discuss. If you havenít already, join the forum to reply.
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Page 2
    • JJ-X-Ray
    • By JJ-X-Ray 10th Jan 18, 12:15 PM
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    JJ-X-Ray
    does this apply to businesses as small as corner shops?
    In my experience they are often the worst offenders for adding card charges
    • charlieheard
    • By charlieheard 10th Jan 18, 12:16 PM
    • 516 Posts
    • 151 Thanks
    charlieheard
    I renewed the tax on our Yaris on Monday 8th, and they said that it would cost an extra £2.50 to pay by credit card. As the renewal was only £20, that's a wopping 12.5%! Needless to say, I paid by debit card...
    Jumbo

    "You may have speed, but I have momentum"
    • LameWolf
    • By LameWolf 10th Jan 18, 1:20 PM
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    LameWolf
    Well I guess this explains why the TV Licencing website is currently down (I tried to log in earlier to pay the TV licence). They must be updating the site to take account of these changes.

    I shall be interested to see if I can pay by CC without paying extra, or if the option will be gone entirely (have paid by Debit Card up til now).
    LameWolf
    If your dog thinks you're the best, don't seek a second opinion.
    • eskbanker
    • By eskbanker 10th Jan 18, 1:36 PM
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    eskbanker
    What exactly does that signify?

    Three call it a discount for paying by DD. Not the same as a surcharge, but their £5 non-DD fee is essentially a surcharge which can be 25%-100% of your phone bill.

    Not clear cut.
    Originally posted by aj23
    Without wishing to get bogged down in all the stuff from the other thread again, even if it was a surcharge, it clearly wouldn't be a surcharge specifically for paying by card, it would be one for not arranging account settlement by DD, in that it applies to payments by cash, cheque, bank transfer, etc, as well as cards, and so is unaffected by this change in regulations.

    My sandwich shop charges 50p for using a card if the price is below £5. Will they be able to continue doing this?
    Originally posted by DonnySaver
    does this apply to businesses as small as corner shops?
    In my experience they are often the worst offenders for adding card charges
    Originally posted by JJ-X-Ray
    To be fair, small shops are the ones who suffer the most from taking card payments, as the combination of high merchant fees and associated costs (relative to large companies) and low transaction values (again relative to large companies) means that they're effectively penalised more than most. However, they won't be allowed to surcharge going forward, so will have a choice of:
    • absorbing the card fees
    • increasing prices across the board
    • refusing to take card payments at all
    • or potentially ignoring the new regulations (perhaps even refusing to serve objectors).
    • blaggrr
    • By blaggrr 10th Jan 18, 3:19 PM
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    blaggrr
    It's an EU directive, but we know with some EU directives, there could be 28 different dates for implementing a directive via 28 new local laws throughout EU - anyone know if it'll actually be an instantaneous implementation throughout EU and/or EEA, or will Netherlands (as lupus suggests) and others still be looking to discriminate against "foreign" cards for some time yet?
    • eDicky
    • By eDicky 10th Jan 18, 4:26 PM
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    eDicky
    Having been on holiday to the Netherlands, I worry about which way this might go. In many (possibly most?) shops, they only accept Debit cards. However, they mean some Dutch only scheme of debit cards which require you to have an account with a Dutch bank. Debit cards using the Visa or Mastercard systems (which is now most cards from UK banks) aren't accepted. Nor are credit cards at all.
    Originally posted by lupus
    In the Netherlands nothing will change. Every Dutch person has a bank debit card, Maestro or its Visa equivalent, that costs virtually nothing for the merchant to accept. Cards issued in the UK, on the other hand, involve relatively substantial fees to support the culture of rewards, cashback, etc, that the British have been sucked in to and which simply doesn't exist in the Netherlands.

    The Dutch are not so foolish to believe they would be getting something for nothing that nobody pays for and nobody uses a credit card. So those cards are simply rejected by the card terminals, except in tourist areas and department stores etc where the prices support the cost.
    • Nick_C
    • By Nick_C 10th Jan 18, 5:43 PM
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    Nick_C
    It's an EU directive, but we know with some EU directives, there could be 28 different dates for implementing a directive via 28 new local laws throughout EU - anyone know if it'll actually be an instantaneous implementation throughout EU and/or EEA, or will Netherlands (as lupus suggests) and others still be looking to discriminate against "foreign" cards for some time yet?
    Originally posted by blaggrr
    13 January is the latest date by which member states must bring the directive into law.

    Some states could have chosen to enact some of the provisions earlier.

    The UK has gone beyond the requirements of the directive by treating Amex and PayPal the same as EU credit cards.
    • NoodleDoodleMan
    • By NoodleDoodleMan 10th Jan 18, 7:39 PM
    • 339 Posts
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    NoodleDoodleMan
    we should all already know that in the UK if there is a way to rip customers off, businesses will find it and exploit it! and usually, in cases such as this, the 'new charge' will be higher than the old charge that has just been banned! you cant beat living in a great country!!
    Can't disagree with that - struggling to think of any decent sized retailer that hasn't added a CC % fee - except Jet2.

    I doubt it's from any philanthropic position, more likely to attract potential custom away from the major opposition who do impose such surcharges.

    Nevertheless, no complaints - if you use a cashback credit card through a cashback linked website you can enjoy a "triple play" nice little earner !!!
    • blaggrr
    • By blaggrr 10th Jan 18, 9:38 PM
    • 7 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    blaggrr
    13 January is the latest date by which member states must bring the directive into law.

    Some states could have chosen to enact some of the provisions earlier.

    The UK has gone beyond the requirements of the directive by treating Amex and PayPal the same as EU credit cards.
    Originally posted by Nick_C
    Thanks Nick_C. So does that mean countries like the Netherlands have to swallow their pride and stop discriminating against "foreign" Mastercard and VISA payments?
    • Nick_C
    • By Nick_C 10th Jan 18, 10:46 PM
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    Nick_C
    Thanks Nick_C. So does that mean countries like the Netherlands have to swallow their pride and stop discriminating against "foreign" Mastercard and VISA payments?
    Originally posted by blaggrr
    It depends what you mean by discriminating.

    No business is going to forced to accept a particular type of payment.
    • blaggrr
    • By blaggrr 11th Jan 18, 11:06 AM
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    blaggrr
    It depends what you mean by discriminating. No business is going to forced to accept a particular type of payment.
    Originally posted by Nick_C
    Semantics methinks. As I read it, every business will, from this coming Saturday, be forced to remove surcharges for the particular types of payment it chooses to accept. So if a business anywhere in EU says it accepts VISA and Mastercard and hitherto has accepted all of them and continues to do so next week (and contrary to an earlier post, that will not just be businesses in 'tourist areas', but will include all the major supermarkets and fuel stations across Europe where all we out and about Europeans spend the larger proportion of our money daily), it must cease adding any surcharge for any VISA or Mastercard payment, no matter whether it was issued in country, or abroad, or whether it is a debit card or a credit card.
    • woolythoughts
    • By woolythoughts 11th Jan 18, 11:25 AM
    • 105 Posts
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    woolythoughts
    But can anyone explain what the actual point of this rule is?


    The situation today is you can choose to accept the cost of the CC payment or pay by another method or stop the transaction. There is nothing unfair about that.


    So what consumer protection is this supposed to bring? Assuming consumer protection is the reason behind these sort of regulations.
    • Nick_C
    • By Nick_C 11th Jan 18, 12:00 PM
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    Nick_C
    But can anyone explain what the actual point of this rule is?
    Originally posted by woolythoughts
    The point is to stop consumers being ripped off.

    Currently, any CC surcharge must be reasonable and designed to cover the retailers cost of taking CCs.

    But it's hard to know what a reasonable charge is. And retailers have been able to average costs of to a flat fee, which can be a very high percentage on a small transaction.

    The new rule is simple and easy to enforce.
    • woolythoughts
    • By woolythoughts 11th Jan 18, 12:31 PM
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    woolythoughts
    But consumers were not being ripped off unless they chose to be - they had three options: Accept the charge, use a different method, walk away.


    If credit card was the Only way to pay and this was an issue, then I can see the reason, but it isn't.


    I was quite happy to pay the surcharge at HMRC to get the air miles every time I paid my tax bill. The surcharge was a bargain to get 50K air miles pain free every year.
    • eskbanker
    • By eskbanker 11th Jan 18, 1:05 PM
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    eskbanker
    Semantics methinks. As I read it, every business will, from this coming Saturday, be forced to remove surcharges for the particular types of payment it chooses to accept. So if a business anywhere in EU says it accepts VISA and Mastercard and hitherto has accepted all of them and continues to do so next week (and contrary to an earlier post, that will not just be businesses in 'tourist areas', but will include all the major supermarkets and fuel stations across Europe where all we out and about Europeans spend the larger proportion of our money daily), it must cease adding any surcharge for any VISA or Mastercard payment, no matter whether it was issued in country, or abroad, or whether it is a debit card or a credit card.
    Originally posted by blaggrr
    What you say may well be true, but I can't see how it's relevant to the issue highlighted by lupus and discussed since, i.e. that the Dutch retailers referred to don't currently accept Visa and Mastercard ("Debit cards using the Visa or Mastercard systems [...] aren't accepted. Nor are credit cards at all")?

    As Nick_C correctly points out, the new regulations won't force them to change which cards they accept, but merely outlaw surcharging for accepted payment types.
    • blaggrr
    • By blaggrr 11th Jan 18, 1:43 PM
    • 7 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    blaggrr
    What you say may well be true, but I can't see how it's relevant to the issue highlighted by lupus and discussed since, i.e. that the Dutch retailers referred to don't currently accept Visa and Mastercard ("Debit cards using the Visa or Mastercard systems [...] aren't accepted. Nor are credit cards at all")?

    As Nick_C correctly points out, the new regulations won't force them to change which cards they accept, but merely outlaw surcharging for accepted payment types.
    Originally posted by eskbanker
    I wouldn't be so sure. It seems to me that Payment Services Directive 2 (PSD2) is a lot about breaking open closed networks and creating "open access". The bit we are talking about (no surcharges) is just one effect and maybe we are looking at PSD2 through the wrong end of the telescope if the overall effect will be to encourage consumers to expect to use any payment method they choose and thus to put pressure on merchants and upline payment services partners to make sure they offer what consumers want?

    But consumers were not being ripped off unless they chose to be - they had three options: Accept the charge, use a different method, walk away.
    Originally posted by woolythoughts
    Three options? That's wildly simplistic. I reckon the point of the new law is to radically change the dynamic within a somewhat wildly developed Payment Services environment, the full consequences of which no ordinary individual consumer could consciously have been expected to keep pace with.

    The dice had become loaded far too much against consumers in favour of the major payment networks and in favour of other controllers of large volumes of transactions. As I see it, the point of the directive was to redress the balance by removing all opportunity down the line to discriminate using surcharges.

    Signs that it was long ago going wrong were for example the introduction of DCC which perhaps was a sop to small business by their networks, and the moves made by the likes of Ryanair to exploit their own customer volumes, at one point discriminating between prepay Mastercards and other Mastercards. Both examples seem to have been designed to give the merchants a larger slice of the surcharge pie, but the real problem is the cartel-like charging structure of the main nefarious networks and their big bank partners. The new law hopefully puts pressure on the big boy payment services players via their soon to be more disgruntled networked merchants. Perhaps parts of the cartel will even start competing again? That's the hope, and if they do, then it should reduce prices for us a bit.

    So it is not we consumers who will have to decide if we still want to play - it'll be the merchants.
    They'll need to decide if they wish to walk away from one cartel or another and try something else to please their customers.

    I could walk down the road today and use maybe ten different 'direct' ways to pay for goods and services, including ApplePay, Pingit, ANOther mobile pay arrangement, Mastercard, VISA, ANOther national debit card network (like the Netherlands one), cash, PayPal, a Tesco Gift Card I received the other day instead of a refund ... oh and even Bitcoin, and further, I might indirectly use reward points be they Tesco Clubcard, Hertz Reward, or Airmiles. And I haven't even mentioned getting out my UK chequebook which I think was issued to me back in the 20th century, and is still half used, or Eurocheques (remember those?) or Travellers cheques!

    Is anyone seriously suggesting the Wild West in payment services should be allowed to continue to develop without new legislation to protect consumers interests from the otherwise inevitable exploits of the unscrupulous? I am criticising the scruples of the big boys more than the merchants of course, but there will still be a few ostriches amongst small business interests, with heads in sand. There will be struggles with more blindness and complacency between merchant businesses and the major networks before the smoke clears and everyone settles down again in some sort of new equilibrium, no doubt (at least until Payment Service Directive 3!).

    It is perhaps just a fact of life that a few lesser eggs will need to be cracked to rehash an acceptable payment services omelette in 2018, but those that keep serving what customers like will keep their business, won't they? If their business is aimed at locals only, then I agree it'll be their choice.
    • mkeane64
    • By mkeane64 11th Jan 18, 2:52 PM
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    mkeane64
    CC Surcharge
    Being told that if you have a travel booking, and it was created before 18 July 2017, then the travel company still has the right to charge you the surcharge.

    Anyone got any thoughts on this please?
    • Nick_C
    • By Nick_C 11th Jan 18, 3:06 PM
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    Nick_C
    Being told that if you have a travel booking, and it was created before 18 July 2017, then the travel company still has the right to charge you the surcharge.

    Anyone got any thoughts on this please?
    Originally posted by mkeane64
    Government guidelines :

    " The amendments to the Regulations (regulation 6A, and related amendments) apply to charges made on or after 13 January 2018, except for charges under contracts entered into before 18 July 2017;"

    https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/664065/payment-surcharges-guidance.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwipxcqZl9DYAhXkLsAKHUMVBtEQ FjACegQIEBAB&usg=AOvVaw1gAHglFPhI0gHTjsHL4ohM
    • JohnM5206
    • By JohnM5206 11th Jan 18, 5:42 PM
    • 95 Posts
    • 33 Thanks
    JohnM5206
    A conversation with local council in respect of Ringo parking payments elicited this reply:
    "...Council does not pass on the cost of taking payment by debit/credit for parking to customers. The only potential charge in addition to the fee for parking is made by Ringo where customers elect to use their services. Again the cost of taking the payment for parking if using a debit/credit card is met by the Council."
    The non optional fee is a "Convenience Fee" for paying by credit card
    £1 parking charge costs £1.20 if using a credit card.
    Would this qualify because a third party is involved in the payment for the service?
    JohnM
    Last edited by JohnM5206; 11-01-2018 at 5:43 PM. Reason: typo
    • amstel2
    • By amstel2 11th Jan 18, 5:53 PM
    • 259 Posts
    • 38 Thanks
    amstel2
    My sandwich shop charges 50p for using a card if the price is below £5. Will they be able to continue doing this?
    Originally posted by DonnySaver
    Yes they can, find a different sandwich shop or make your own.

    Seriously though what annoys me is when they don't quote the minimum spend policy until your at the till about to pay with no signs up warning you. Several times i have encountered this & walked out without buying & that also included a sandwich shop. If they don't tell me when i walk in i ain't buying.
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