St. James's Place - can I do better?

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  • capital0ne
    capital0ne Posts: 872
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    eskbanker wrote: »
    I
    The best way to find an IFA is via personal recommendation but there are various guides at the likes of https://www.moneyadviceservice.org.uk/en/articles/choosing-a-financial-adviser#how-to-find-a-financial-adviser and https://www.moneywise.co.uk/find-an-ifa plus directory sites like https://www.unbiased.co.uk and https://www.vouchedfor.co.uk

    Find several who are local to you and meet them on a no-fee no-obligation initial meeting basis and see who you like the look of....
    Johndonuts, have you found an IFA yet? The above info is top notch.
  • Johndonuts
    Johndonuts Posts: 24
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    Thanks again for all your input. I think I will have to seek independent financial advice quickly. I need this money making money for my retirement. This snap decision which I was last to know about has knocked me for six. As only weeks ago I was being told in a roundabout way that 'we' should not take money out in the penalty period. I was trying to say in the five to ten minutes on the phone during a two hour meeting with the new fund manager 'others' were having, that I would only do so in emergency.

    But you are right, hasty decisions will probably cost me. I'm a little bit hurt at the moment with double dealings, and the continuing goings on behind my back, and simply want out of this trust. I will get a financial advisor to look at all this and hopefully come up with the best solution. Not nice being the runt of the litter, north south divides are ugly. But that's another story.


    Thanks again for for the helpful advice, sorry for mini rant.
  • Credit-Crunched
    Credit-Crunched Posts: 2,212 Forumite
    Johndonuts wrote: »
    Hello all. I am looking for a bit of advice on fund management. I am currently with St. James's Place, but they take 4% upfront on any investments, and there's a management fee of 2% plus an exit fee for first 6 years.
    After the 6 year period is up, I am thinking about moving this money, and investing more. I want to avoid such a high upfront fee, if this is at all possible?
    I have read a bit of bad press about St. James's Place, not had any problems with them yet, so it's not an issue of mistrust, just wonder if I can do any better?
    Any advice on reputable fund managers would be great. Because I don't know where to start.
    Thanks in advance for any advice.

    I would check this, from what I have seen, it is either a 4% upfront fee or charges for the 6% exit? Not both.
  • Johndonuts
    Johndonuts Posts: 24
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    Thanks for that, I will look into it as soon as I can.
  • Kayster
    Kayster Posts: 390
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    I have a trust with SJP. I was unable to find any DIY investment options for trusts which is why I got involved with them. .
    All the rest of my investments, SIPP and ISa are DIY mainly with II. (the SJP trust represents less than 10% of my holdings.)
    SJP made no upfront charge, set up the trust for no cost and take 2% per year with no dealing costs to change investments. Investment performance has been acceptable. If I was to withdraw before 6 years there is a sliding scale of charges but as I have no intention to do this this is if no importance. They come to my home at intervals to suit me so little time is spent running the investment and their representative is willing to offer his view on any investment, retirement or trust matters that I care to throw at him during these visits.
    More recently I have discovered this forum and regularly read how awful SJP are - well that is not my experience.
    I read on here that Brewin Dolphin were an OK outfit so having a further trust to place i arranged for them to call and found to my surprise that their charges where slightly more than the "awful" SJP.
  • dunstonh
    dunstonh Posts: 116,051
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    I read on here that Brewin Dolphin were an OK outfit so having a further trust to place i arranged for them to call and found to my surprise that their charges where slightly more than the "awful" SJP.

    BD are a DFM. They add an extra layer of charges that most people dont need.
    More recently I have discovered this forum and regularly read how awful SJP are - well that is not my experience.

    They are not awful. They are very slick and professional. You just pay a fortune to use them. With their restrictions in place, their less than transparent charging structures which many feel are not RDR compliant (they are because they only retail their own product but its not in the spirit of RDR) there really isnt any reason to use them.
    I am an Independent Financial Adviser (IFA). The comments I make are just my opinion and are for discussion purposes only. They are not financial advice and you should not treat them as such. If you feel an area discussed may be relevant to you, then please seek advice from an Independent Financial Adviser local to you.
  • Aegis
    Aegis Posts: 5,688
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    Kayster wrote: »
    I have a trust with SJP. I was unable to find any DIY investment options for trusts which is why I got involved with them. .
    All the rest of my investments, SIPP and ISa are DIY mainly with II. (the SJP trust represents less than 10% of my holdings.)
    SJP made no upfront charge, set up the trust for no cost and take 2% per year with no dealing costs to change investments. Investment performance has been acceptable. If I was to withdraw before 6 years there is a sliding scale of charges but as I have no intention to do this this is if no importance. They come to my home at intervals to suit me so little time is spent running the investment and their representative is willing to offer his view on any investment, retirement or trust matters that I care to throw at him during these visits.
    More recently I have discovered this forum and regularly read how awful SJP are - well that is not my experience.
    I read on here that Brewin Dolphin were an OK outfit so having a further trust to place i arranged for them to call and found to my surprise that their charges where slightly more than the "awful" SJP.
    Depending on the size of the trust in question, 2% could be pretty reasonable or horrendously expensive. At £100,000, £2,000 a year for covering all of the trust advice, investment management, insurance wrapper and underlying fund charge is probably acceptable, while at £1,000,000 the 2% total charge would be far too much. SJP don't - to the very best of my knowledge - operate any sort of sliding scale or fee cap based on size of portfolio, so there's no economy of scale given to clients.


    In addition, I personally find the 6% early surrender fee to be morally repugnant. It's an entirely artificial charge levied to allow you to think you've been given free up-front advice. In reality, you haven't. With a 6% penalty at outset, your adviser was probably paid close to 5% up front, funded by SJP because they know they're going to get between 6 and 12% from you before the exit penalty expires. If you find a better deal: too bad.


    It's the very antithesis of a healthy and competitive financial services sector, and it utterly flies in the face of the Retail Distribution Review, which put a stop to such practices for pretty much every other financial adviser in the country because it was deemed to put clients at risk of poor outcomes.
    I am a Chartered Financial Planner
    Anything I say on the forum is for discussion purposes only and should not be construed as personal financial advice. It is vitally important to do your own research before acting on information gathered from any users on this forum.
  • Malthusian
    Malthusian Posts: 10,898
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    The idea that the early surrender penalty "isn't really a cost because I have no mention of selling" ignores the fact that the majority of SJP clients find out how eye-watering the charges are within six years, move their funds to DIY or an IFA, and take the hit of the exit charge. So in most cases it is an explicit cost.

    If you somehow manage to not notice how high the charges are and keep funds with SJP for more than six years then you pay via the inflated annual charges instead. They literally have you coming or going.
  • Credit-Crunched
    Credit-Crunched Posts: 2,212 Forumite
    Malthusian wrote: »
    The idea that the early surrender penalty "isn't really a cost because I have no mention of selling" ignores the fact that the majority of SJP clients find out how eye-watering the charges are within six years, move their funds to DIY or an IFA, and take the hit of the exit charge. So in most cases it is an explicit cost.

    If you somehow manage to not notice how high the charges are and keep funds with SJP for more than six years then you pay via the inflated annual charges instead. They literally have you coming or going.

    As a matter of interest, what would you deem to be a reasonable cost for a pension of £150k per year. My parents are paying 1.2% with SJP. This includes the advisers ongoing advice, and fund costs all in. (yes, i have checked this number)

    Both IFA's that came to see my parents wanted 1% just for the ongoing advice fee, which was double what SJP charges for the ongoing advice?
  • Aegis
    Aegis Posts: 5,688
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    As a matter of interest, what would you deem to be a reasonable cost for a pension of £150k per year. My parents are paying 1.2% with SJP. This includes the advisers ongoing advice, and fund costs all in. (yes, i have checked this number)

    Both IFA's that came to see my parents wanted 1% just for the ongoing advice fee, which was double what SJP charges for the ongoing advice?
    As an ongoing cost, that seems pretty reasonable. I'd be curious to know what fund(s) they hold within the pension, if you're able to share?


    At £150k I'd struggle to undercut an ongoing fee that low. It's not really my target portfolio size though - if I was in mass-market at 0.5% per annum as a standard ongoing fee, I certainly could, but such a comparison wouldn't be helpful unless I know that I'm comparing like with like. For example, dropping a cheap UK tracker into a cheap platform could get the pension, platform and investment costs to under 0.3% all-in, which would lead to total charges of 0.8% in the 0.5% adviser fee world, but that's very unlikely to be suitable. A balanced managed fund within a pension might still be available at 0.5-0.6% all-in, which still leaves room for an adviser charge of 0.5% without being pricier than SJP. An expensive multi-manager fund, on the other hand, would be much more expensive.


    Generally speaking, it's not the ongoing fees that bother me about SJP as much as the very high initial fees (up to 5%), the extremely limited product range, the claim that they are better than independent, the tie-in charges for pensions and bonds, and the complete disregard for the pricing transparency that was supposed to be one of the major achievements of the Retail Distribution Review.
    I am a Chartered Financial Planner
    Anything I say on the forum is for discussion purposes only and should not be construed as personal financial advice. It is vitally important to do your own research before acting on information gathered from any users on this forum.
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