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  • FIRST POST
    Former MSE Lawrence
    'Should we withdraw from Europe?' poll discussion
    • #1
    • 8th Jun 09, 10:26 AM
    'Should we withdraw from Europe?' poll discussion 8th Jun 09 at 10:26 AM
    Poll between 8-15 June 2009.

    Should we withdraw from Europe?

    From regulations to unlocking trade barriers the European Union (EU) plays a huge part in our economic life. We’ve just had Euro elections and the eurosceptic parties did well, but let's purify the question.

    Which of these is closest to your view on Europe?

    A. Full integration. A United States of Europe. - 6% (737 votes)
    B. More Integration. E.g. Join the Euro & have unified foreign policy. - 13% (1545 votes)
    C. Status Quo. Keep things as they are now. - 12% (1357 votes)
    D. Less Integration. E.g. Keep open trade but that’s it. - 38% (4405 votes)
    E. Withdraw. UK to leave the EU. - 30% (3470 votes)

    Total votes: 11514

    Voting has now closed, but you can still click 'post reply' to discuss below. Thanks

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    Last edited by Former MSE Lawrence; 15-06-2009 at 2:11 PM.
Page 3
    • koopa_coffee
    • By koopa_coffee 11th Jun 09, 5:09 PM
    • 98 Posts
    • 73 Thanks
    koopa_coffee
    B - We're stronger together as a united europe rather than apart.
    Saving for a house deposit and associated costs:

    7750/30000 = 25.83%
    • webwiz
    • By webwiz 11th Jun 09, 5:19 PM
    • 209 Posts
    • 77 Thanks
    webwiz
    D for me, hearing UKIP MEP had claimed 2 MILLION ! in expenses just makes me think more and more what a drain it is on the UK.
    Originally posted by scouseneil
    The UKIP MEP did not claim many expenses. The main allowances are paid automatically to all MEPs and he has been an MEP for 10 years.

    D and E are actually the same. We are already locked into a union and the only way we could change to a free trade deal would be to leave the EU and negotiate one. The other states would never allow us to repatriate powers already ceded to Brussels whilst remaining members. If we did pull out they would fall over themselves to agree a free trade deal as we import 25,000 million more than we export to the other EU states.
  • brawd103
    AAA

    It always seems a pity that the writing on the wall is ignored by so many people. Without being a small part of a big unit we will inevitable become a very small part of no unit at all. Don't think that any wishful thinking about a different scenario will pan out in the long run because it won't.
    The European economy is quite simply bigger than most other united economies and in many respects has the whip hand in negotiations. Any corruption is due entirely to people who either don't use their vote or use it to weaken the EU.

    As a tiny country we have to comply with the demands of stronger economies - that's why we call them strong - and it means we have to get caught up in wars and strife, illegal or otherwise, just to maintain our trading terms.

    I see full integration with the EU as being a prerequisite to stabilising our economy, and hence personal wealth and a good life.

    regards,

    brawd.
    • webwiz
    • By webwiz 11th Jun 09, 6:54 PM
    • 209 Posts
    • 77 Thanks
    webwiz
    To the Anti-European masses:
    Do you understand why other European countries are desperate to join? Surely they've got a point.
    Have you ever been to a non-EU European country? They're pretty grim.
    Who would we sell to? Britain sells little enough abroad as it is, once outside the EU the UK would be on the wrong side of the trade barrier and at the mercy of other blocs, such as the US and China.
    The UK government being dictated to by the EU? Good! Our governments are constantly useless, depriving the population of rights such as fair pay and privacy, ultimately our best hope is the European courts - or do you really trust MPs?!
    Originally posted by BritSwedeGuy
    The other European countries that were desperate to join were all the poor ones. The two richest, Norway and Switzerland, are happy being outside the EU but with a free trade agreement (the peoples if not the governments that is). Turkey is next. As for exports we have a 25 billion trade defecit with the other EU countries so our leaving would create a problem for them not us if they refused us a free trade deal - but they won't.
  • teddyco
    webwiz,

    You are correct. Norway is currently a member of EFTA (European Free Trade Agreement) and that allows them to trade freely with the EU. Britain left EFTA in 1973 and joined the EEC (European Economic Community) which ended in 1993 when the European Union was formed and the EEC was merged with the EU.

    Britain could still leave the EU and go back to EFTA which would allow us to have the same benefits as Norway and Switzerland without all the expense and power mongering.

    One only has to pick up the newspaper and see the recent EU legislation to scrap the British lightbulb - which works perfectly well - and embrace a bulb that contains toxic mercury which is poisonous if it breaks.
    Last edited by teddyco; 11-06-2009 at 8:46 PM.
  • ham123
    Hmmm
    webwiz,

    You are correct. Norway is currently a member of EFTA (European Free Trade Agreement) and that allows them to trade freely with the EU. Britain left EFTA in 1973 and joined the EEC (European Economic Community) which ended in 1993 when the European Union was formed and the EEC was merged with the EU.

    Britain could still leave the EU and go back to EFTA which would allow us to have the same benefits as Norway and Switzerland without all the expense and power mongering.
    Originally posted by teddyco
    It is possible to talk all day about how the UK should leave the EU and how beneficial it would be for us. However through just reading these forums threads I have realised how uneducated I am when it comes to the EU and the UK. Basically I don't know the facts and i think this is a problem for most of the UK as the average joe will not look into these things in detail. You would hope/expect that our govt. would at least try to educate people on both sides of the arguement of why the EU is beneficial and why it is not and try to weigh the argument instead of the whole

    "THE EU IS VERY GOOD, WE MUST JOIN"....etc.

    Also a referendum would be nice on our current EU membership after everyone knows all the facts, this would at least give the citizens of the UK a true chance to forge our OWN future.

    However on the flip side, you can see why the EU looks like a good idea on the outside but unfortuantly it just doesn't just seem to work as well for the richer countries. I was shocked when I heard someone earlier on quote 40 billion a year for membership?...What do we get for that? Who knows? How is the cost/country worked out? If our economy isn't dubbed as a strong economy why are we getting hit so heavily? Just looks like we are raping our own country.

    I voted for E by the way but looking back i would proberly vote for D. Trade is always good. Having a deal similiar to switzerland or norway would be great.
  • teddyco
    ham123,

    That figure of 40,000,000,000 was taken from a study done in 2004 by Civitas: Institute for the Study of Civil Society London.

    http://www.civitas.org.uk/pdf/cs37.pdf

    That figure has indeed grown since 2004 and in 2008, it has been estimated that the total gross cost to the UK of EU membership in 2008 was estimated at around 65,000,000,000. That figure is estimated to grow even further as new EU countries like Romania and Bulgaria make demands for subsidies and the EU comes up with more silly rules that make life in the UK even more expensive.

    http://www.brugesgroup.com/CostOfTheEU2008.pdf

    28 billion for business to comply with EU regulations,
    17 billion of additional food costs resulting from the Common Agricultural Policy
    3.3 billion - the value of the catch lost when the Common Fisheries Policy let other countries fish in our territorial waters
    14.6 billion gross paid into the EU budget and other EU funds.

    It's very easy to access information with the computer and there are numerous studies that have been done by intelligent people.
    Last edited by teddyco; 12-06-2009 at 8:18 AM.
  • sodamnfunky
    C for me. I used to be all for getting away from Europe, but I now see it as an integral part of our economy and way of life
  • ham123
    teddycyo,

    I can't help but be a little bit gob-smacked by that amount.

    I thought for other readers in my situation (not knowing a lot of facts) I would put it into context. The UK NHS has a current annual budget of 102 billion and the defence budget is 37 billion. So we nearly pay as much for something worthwhile(NHS) and serving the people as we do for something which just seems to take(EU). Also the defence budget, which is used to help protect this nation from dangerous elements has less funding than something that seems wrapped up in beauracy and corruption.

    I can't help but feel a little sick over these findings. Link to this is below if you guys are interested.
    ukpublicspending.co.uk/uk_defence_budget_2009_3.html

    So in two hours or so of investigation and looking over online articles it has become apparent to me that the EU isn't right for the UK in the current way it is run. This leads to two options I think.

    1. Try to change the EU to be more fair and give law making abilities back to local govt.
    2. Leave the EU except keep open trade.

    It would be nice to see someone who is pro european come up with some facts as to why the EU is a good thing and maybe some examples.
  • steven504
    [QUOTE=npw32jnw;22361037]
    We would also be able to take hold of our own laws again - not that everything which has come out of Europe has been bad, but there have certainly been some bizarre things, and the Human Rights Act (which has stirred up controversy everywhere it has touched) is one such thing. [QUOTE]


    The Human Rights act is not an EU Law.
    Lets not use quidco
    • mike_paterson
    • By mike_paterson 13th Jun 09, 8:08 AM
    • 1,378 Posts
    • 399 Thanks
    mike_paterson
    I think that the results should be made public in the papers so the Government can see!
    To infinity and beyond!
    • mike_paterson
    • By mike_paterson 13th Jun 09, 8:13 AM
    • 1,378 Posts
    • 399 Thanks
    mike_paterson
    B - We're stronger together as a united europe rather than apart.
    Originally posted by koopa_coffee
    Really - in what way?

    I guess by "We" you mean people in Europe rather than people in Britain?

    I disagree that "we" are "united" in any sense of the word(s).
    To infinity and beyond!
    • DJFearRoss
    • By DJFearRoss 13th Jun 09, 12:52 PM
    • 87 Posts
    • 31 Thanks
    DJFearRoss
    I know a lawyer from Hungary who works for the EU. Although he is pro-Europe, he totally acknowledges that there is a lot of corruption in the EU. He told me that Greece shouldn't even be part of the EU as they just made up all their figures to enter to be accepted. He also told me that Romania and Bulgaria shouldn't have been allowed to enter due to the crime rates in those countries.

    I for one am baffled how many countries can become part of the EU, I thought they had to meet certain conditions such as unemployment rates, crime, human rights etc. I mean in Romania, there are children still living in the sewers.
    • Ken68
    • By Ken68 13th Jun 09, 2:17 PM
    • 6,502 Posts
    • 4,141 Thanks
    Ken68
    Always thought the idea of letting in small poor countries was cheap labour. Keeps our trade unions in line.
    I know a landlord who is on a list for the supply of inexpensive tradesmen, and is complaining that so many have gone back to their own country, so is having to wait.
    • Justamum
    • By Justamum 13th Jun 09, 4:13 PM
    • 4,685 Posts
    • 35,888 Thanks
    Justamum
    I for one am baffled how many countries can become part of the EU, I thought they had to meet certain conditions such as unemployment rates, crime, human rights etc. I mean in Romania, there are children still living in the sewers.
    Originally posted by DJFearRoss

    They need to be dragged into the EU whether or not they actually 'qualify'. The ultimate aim is a World Government, with one bank, one currency and one army - and we'll all be microchipped too. First steps are to have a European Union, an African Union (evolved from OAU), an American Union (evolved from NAFTA) and a Pacific Union (evolved from APEC). I am betting that once the Euro and US Dollar are at the same level they will merge the two into one currency "might as well - it will be easier" I'm sure will be the reasoning.
    Last edited by Justamum; 13-06-2009 at 4:20 PM.

    • Ken68
    • By Ken68 13th Jun 09, 4:52 PM
    • 6,502 Posts
    • 4,141 Thanks
    Ken68
    They need to be dragged into the EU whether or not they actually 'qualify'. The ultimate aim is a World Government, with one bank, one currency and one army - and we'll all be microchipped too. First steps are to have a European Union, an African Union (evolved from OAU), an American Union (evolved from NAFTA) and a Pacific Union (evolved from APEC). I am betting that once the Euro and US Dollar are at the same level they will merge the two into one currency "might as well - it will be easier" I'm sure will be the reasoning.
    Originally posted by Justamum
    Agree Mum....but we gotta sort out the war-mongering arms dealers who want us SEPERATE.
    • StevieJ
    • By StevieJ 13th Jun 09, 5:27 PM
    • 19,552 Posts
    • 32,540 Thanks
    StevieJ
    Surprised at the pull out vote, considering how many British jobs would go if we became marginalised in Europe, the behaviour of Lemmings spings to mind
    Government: "Should we get a pet?" 52%: "Yes" Government: "OK, we'll get a cat" 1/2 of 52%: "Oh no, I hate cats. I wanted a dog."
    • Justamum
    • By Justamum 13th Jun 09, 7:27 PM
    • 4,685 Posts
    • 35,888 Thanks
    Justamum
    Agree Mum....but we gotta sort out the war-mongering arms dealers who want us SEPERATE.
    Originally posted by Ken68
    The war-mongering arms dealers will still be selling weapons if we have a world government - gotta arm the army to keep the drones in their place.

  • AlanR55
    Still not to late to change the rules
    We can still trade with the EU but still retain our laws and borders
    Switzerland and others do well on it.
  • YANA
    The EU is a growing monster that fuels itself from fear and feeds from the uninformed.
    We need to do what is right for us and not what fills the pockets of the Brussels "aren't we important" Club.
    EU regulations are strangling and losing us money hand over fist.
    The EU hierarchy want a United States of Europe, they make no bones about it.
    It will finish us and we must get out. Or at the very least, return it to what we democratically voted for - A Common Market.
    Do not be put off by the fearful, uninformed and those with an agenda - as the second wealthiest nation in the EU and the fourth in the world, we can do it.
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