Very difficult situation regarding grandmother's will

gll5dm
gll5dm Posts: 112 Forumite
edited 15 May 2018 at 5:59AM in Deaths, funerals & probate
Hi all,

I!!!8217;d appreciate any advice anybody may have on this. It will be quite longer winded, so thanks in advance if you!!!8217;re prepared to read and reply.

My grandmother died 20 years ago and left money to her daughter (my mother), and her four grandchildren (me, my two brothers and the son of her second husband!!!8217;s son whom she didn!!!8217;t know).
When she died !!!8211; and I don!!!8217;t know how it happened !!!8211; the solicitor in charge of her will told us we had all been left X amount. Let!!!8217;s say 30k each for the sake of argument. This money would only be accessible for those under 25 (everybody apart from my mother) if there was a valid reason, for example a school trip, a first car, study fees, etc.

It couldn!!!8217;t just be given out willy-nilly, so to speak, aside from my mother!!!8217;s share which she was given right away and used for home improvements and a nice family holiday.

The fourth grandchild that my grandmother didn!!!8217;t know was left twice as much as her own daughter, as, prior to the death of my grandmother!!!8217;s second husband, he!!!8217;d had a huge argument with his son and cut him out of the will and left that share to his grandson, essentially giving him two shares and everybody else one.

This went on for a decade, before the solicitor retired and passed it on to a different company, who then told us the conditions were actually completely different, and that the money was being saved in !!!8220;stocks and shares!!!8221; and was being kept in a fund, not divided up between everybody but rather available for everybody to access if they had a valid reason, which I find completely crazy.

The parents of the fourth grandchild were given permission to take an interest-free loan of 30k from the will around 10 years ago, and have seemingly only just paid it back recently, while the final two grandchildren (the fourth one plus my younger brother) will turn 25 next year. Once this happens, I have been told by the solicitor, any funds remaining will be split four ways between us.

I have also been told that those over 25 cannot access any further funds until the final grandchild reaches 25, so myself and my older brother essentially need to sit and wait and see whether the fourth grandchild makes a request for further funds, even though he!!!8217;s received far, far more than even my grandmother!!!8217;s only child.
We assume he!!!8217;ll be doing all he can do drain as much from what remains (around 40k) in the fund, in the knowledge that once he passes 25 he!!!8217;ll have to do as we are doing now, which is sit and wait for my younger brother to turn 25 which happens a few months later next year.

Does anybody have any advice here? This guy has received an awful lot of money from the will of a grandmother he didn!!!8217;t even know, while my mother who has been scrimping and saving for years could end up without a further penny from what her mother left behind.

We need to somehow get access to these funds to stop this guy from draining even more than he already has. It appears my younger brother is the only one who can access them, given that only he is under 25. I!!!8217;d love nothing more than to be able to hand my !!!8216;share!!!8217; of what!!!8217;s left over (currently around 10k per person) to my mother, but know this fourth grandchild can request funds for another year over and over again until there is nothing left.

Thanks for any advice and tips.
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Comments

  • Have you actually got a copy of the will and read what it actually states?


    I know my FIL's will stated that the share that was left to my OH and SIL, should they have died before him, was to be left to their respective offspring which was to be received at 21. However if the offspring could apply for funds from their respective share for - as your grandmother's stated - things like education etc.


    However - and I might be wrong here - but does it matter what the will states in terms of what age a person can inherit? Reading posts on here, it would suggest not so if this is the case then perhaps this is a way of challenging the status quo?
  • gll5dm
    gll5dm Posts: 112 Forumite
    Hi,

    Thanks for the reply.

    It appears we were very, very badly advised by the previous solicitor.

    The fourth grandchild is set to receive up to 60k from the will, despite my mother, the only child of her mother, receiving 30k maximum. This grandchild didn't know his grandmother and only received so much due to a petty argument between his father and grandfather.

    Now I look on Facebook and find the guy, his profile picture displays a table full of alcohol and a pile of 50 pound notes. Hence the desperation to keep any further money away from him. Really makes me feel sick to know he's received/will receive such a huge unproportional amount while my parents have been on the breadline most of my life.

    My mother has the will and will share it with me asap.
  • securityguy
    securityguy Posts: 2,462
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    "However - and I might be wrong here - but does it matter what the will states in terms of what age a person can inherit? Reading posts on here, it would suggest not"

    I suspect you are misinterpreting the discussion that's been had about trusts. Saunders v Vautier holds that if all the beneficiaries of a bare trust are competent to dissolve the trust, they can, irrespective of other provisions about age. Competent, in 2017, means 18, so "I leave £X to my son payable at age 25" is ineffective and can be dissolved by the son at 18 (they might need a court to help, but any trustee who defended such an action would be acting improperly, so sane trustees will just pay on request).

    But this sounds, on the face of it, like a discretionary trust which is a lump of money under the control of a trustee who has substantial discretion over what the money is used for and, possibly, how it is ultimately distributed. It would be very interesting to read the will and find out the terms of the trust to confirm, but some discretionary trusts fall outside Saunders because they don't have clearly defined remaindermen who are clearly entitled to specific shares of the trust, and therefore the trustees have discretion about how and when the trust is wound up.

    The whole thing sounds like a complete mess, and were I involved in it I would get a copy of the will from the probate office, write to the solicitor handling the trust to get their statement of what they think my eventual entitlement is and then take the whole mess to a specialist.
  • getmore4less
    getmore4less Posts: 46,882
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    First thing to do is get a copy of the will from the probate registry.
  • gll5dm
    gll5dm Posts: 112 Forumite
    Thanks for your reply, @securityguy.

    Yes, it is a mess, with this most undeserving of people ending up the huge benefactor of it all.

    What you described regarding a discretionary trust with a trustee is correct.

    I will post details up of the will when I receive it tonight from my mother.

    Would really appreciate any further tips you may have once I do this. Thanks again.
  • securityguy
    securityguy Posts: 2,462
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    "My mother has the will"

    I would advise you to get a copy from the probate office, unless you are absolutely certain that the will which she has is the precise version which was admitted to probate.

    Be warned, there is also the strong possibility that there is a side letter to the will which is the guidance to the trustees, and you might struggle to convince the trustees to show you that. If it's a fully discretionary trust (and 20 years ago these were popular for tax reasons) then the trustees can basically do what they want, with the letter from the deceased as little more than a hint.

    I really don't want to be the bearer of bad news, but I wouldn't rely on seeing a penny of the money. Unless there's a clear pathway to the dissolution of the trust, and a statement that the trust contains roughly the assets you expect, you probably should seek professional advice: at first glance (and it's hard to tell without sight of the documents) it doesn't sound as though the solicitors involved have behaved very well.
  • I suspect you are misinterpreting the discussion that's been had about trusts. Saunders v Vautier holds that if all the beneficiaries of a bare trust are competent to dissolve the trust, they can, irrespective of other provisions about age. Competent, in 2017, means 18, so "I leave £X to my son payable at age 25" is ineffective and can be dissolved by the son at 18 (they might need a court to help, but any trustee who defended such an action would be acting improperly, so sane trustees will just pay on request).

    But this sounds, on the face of it, like a discretionary trust which is a lump of money under the control of a trustee who has substantial discretion over what the money is used for and, possibly, how it is ultimately distributed. It would be very interesting to read the will and find out the terms of the trust to confirm, but some discretionary trusts fall outside Saunders because they don't have clearly defined remaindermen who are clearly entitled to specific shares of the trust, and therefore the trustees have discretion about how and when the trust is wound up.

    The whole thing sounds like a complete mess, and were I involved in it I would get a copy of the will from the probate office, write to the solicitor handling the trust to get their statement of what they think my eventual entitlement is and then take the whole mess to a specialist.


    I really don't want the wrong impression - and don't know to phrase it differently so don't take offence - but I'm glad you've corrected me - as I said I've only read on here that trusts stating ages weren't enforceable but couldn't state that with certain!
    gll5dm wrote: »
    Hi,

    Thanks for the reply.

    It appears we were very, very badly advised by the previous solicitor.

    The fourth grandchild is set to receive up to 60k from the will, despite my mother, the only child of her mother, receiving 30k maximum. This grandchild didn't know his grandmother and only received so much due to a petty argument between his father and grandfather.

    Now I look on Facebook and find the guy, his profile picture displays a table full of alcohol and a pile of 50 pound notes. Hence the desperation to keep any further money away from him. Really makes me feel sick to know he's received/will receive such a huge unproportional amount while my parents have been on the breadline most of my life.

    My mother has the will and will share it with me asap.


    I know this is difficult and gauling but you have to try and keep emotion out of this - what is morally right isn't always what is legally right.
  • gll5dm
    gll5dm Posts: 112 Forumite
    "My mother has the will"

    I would advise you to get a copy from the probate office, unless you are absolutely certain that the will which she has is the precise version which was admitted to probate.

    Be warned, there is also the strong possibility that there is a side letter to the will which is the guidance to the trustees, and you might struggle to convince the trustees to show you that. If it's a fully discretionary trust (and 20 years ago these were popular for tax reasons) then the trustees can basically do what they want, with the letter from the deceased as little more than a hint.

    I really don't want to be the bearer of bad news, but I wouldn't rely on seeing a penny of the money. Unless there's a clear pathway to the dissolution of the trust, and a statement that the trust contains roughly the assets you expect, you probably should seek professional advice: at first glance (and it's hard to tell without sight of the documents) it doesn't sound as though the solicitors involved have behaved very well.
    Thanks again. I'll look at what my mother sends me tonight but in the meantime I've ordered a copy of the will. It will be delivered within 10 days apparently.

    Do you think the only option may be to wait and see if this guy continues to make requests for funds, up until he turns 25?

    Only then will the remaining funds be shared out, according to the current solicitor.
  • securityguy
    securityguy Posts: 2,462
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    The problem is that you will find it very hard to challenge the decisions of the trustees. If the trustees were left excessively detailed instructions then my understanding is that the trust would cease to be discretionary and therefore be different (under the rules of 20 years ago) for inheritance tax. You would have to show that the behaviour of the trustees was manifestly unreasonable, given the stated purposes of the trust.

    Ah, the problems caused by people thinking that there are magic bullet answers to inheritance issues.
  • gll5dm
    gll5dm Posts: 112 Forumite
    The problem is that you will find it very hard to challenge the decisions of the trustees. If the trustees were left excessively detailed instructions then my understanding is that the trust would cease to be discretionary and therefore be different (under the rules of 20 years ago) for inheritance tax. You would have to show that the behaviour of the trustees was manifestly unreasonable, given the stated purposes of the trust.

    Ah, the problems caused by people thinking that there are magic bullet answers to inheritance issues.
    Apologies for my ignorance, but what exactly do you mean by "challenge the decisions of the trustees"?

    Am I right in thinking that if nobody requests any further funds then whatever remains now would be split 4 ways as the solicitor has told me?

    The danger being that two of the grandchildren are still under 25 and therefore have access to the funds for another year.
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