Electric cars
Comments
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HiGloomendoom wrote: »It suits the argument and is appropriate as EVs haven't been around long enough in large enough numbers to make a valid comparison.
Conversely, ICE vehicles have been around long enough in large enough numbers to gauge service & consumables maintenance costs, particularly on components that don't exist on EVs, such as 'plugs, exhausts, timing belts etc' ... it's also relevant to note that global experience in electric motors isn't insignificant either and they generally prove far more resilient & reliable than combustion engines of similar power and therefore it's not illogical to work on the basis that units installed in automotive applications will have service interval requirements similar to those used in other applications!
The only EV item which has a comparatively untested lifetime would be the power-pack, but then again, if there's a time-based warranty backed by the manufacturer, wouldn't it simply make sense to classify the unit as a replaceable consumable in the same way as fuel in an ICE when outside that period?
Regarding ... 'It may suit the argument to only consider the 'first few years'' ... of course it does, and that's why comparison was made on that short-term basis as opposed to considering a total cost of through life servicing & maintenance as the costly services that specifically apply to ICE vehicles usually come later for most vehicles .... what's the average interval for an expensive timing belt service, probably 40k-100k miles(?) which could equate to a couple of years (or less) for some particularly high mileage driver/vehicles and for those with lower mileage a change recommendation every 5-6 years(?) ...
For a comparison to be valid, the period for that comparison must suit both vehicle types & through life costs for typical ownership, not be biassed towards one or the other ...
HTH
Z"We are what we repeatedly do, excellence then is not an act, but a habit. " ...... Aristotle
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Hi
Conversely, ICE vehicles have been around long enough in large enough numbers to gauge service & consumables maintenance costs, particularly on components that don't exist on EVs, such as 'plugs, exhausts, timing belts etc' ... it's also relevant to note that global experience in electric motors isn't insignificant either and they generally prove far more resilient & reliable than combustion engines of similar power and therefore it's not illogical to work on the basis that units installed in automotive applications will have service interval requirements similar to those used in other applications!
The only EV item which has a comparatively untested lifetime would be the power-pack, but then again, if there's a time-based warranty backed by the manufacturer, wouldn't it simply make sense to classify the unit as a replaceable consumable in the same way as fuel in an ICE when outside that period?
Regarding ... 'It may suit the argument to only consider the 'first few years'' ... of course it does, and that's why comparison was made on that short-term basis as opposed to considering a total cost of through life servicing & maintenance as the costly services that specifically apply to ICE vehicles usually come later for most vehicles .... what's the average interval for an expensive timing belt service, probably 40k-100k miles(?) which could equate to a couple of years (or less) for some particularly high mileage driver/vehicles and for those with lower mileage a change recommendation every 5-6 years(?) ...
For a comparison to be valid, the period for that comparison must suit both vehicle types & through life costs for typical ownership, not be biassed towards one or the other ...
HTH
Z
Agreed, I don't doubt that overall maintenance will be reduced when compared to an ICEV, however, there is a lot more to an EV than an electric motor. Things will still wear out, break and need replacing. It's too early to tell exactly what and how often0 -
HiGloomendoom wrote: »Agreed, I don't doubt that overall maintenance will be reduced when compared to an ICEV, however, there is a lot more to an EV than an electric motor. Things will still wear out, break and need replacing.
Yes, things will wear & break, but they're not usually the things that are covered or replaced within a standard service interval, it's far more likely that such things would be picked up on a general safety check at service time or within the MOT ... it's effectively irrelevant to compare non-service items that are common to both types of vehicle because they're (a) not consumable items, (b) common, and (c) often fail due to events as opposed to general wear ... however, consumable items generally have a design lifetime that is shorter than that of the vehicle and normally have a set replacement schedule ...
HTH
Z"We are what we repeatedly do, excellence then is not an act, but a habit. " ...... Aristotle0 -
The only EV item which has a comparatively untested lifetime would be the power-pack, but then again, if there's a time-based warranty backed by the manufacturer, wouldn't it simply make sense to classify the unit as a replaceable consumable in the same way as fuel in an ICE when outside that period?
It's certainly an interesting analogy, but not one I think potential buyers of 2nd or 3rd hand EVs would be particularly comfortable with a few years down the line. They won't be interested in the overall costs averaged out from new, just what it will cost them from the time they take ownership. Much in the way that an imminent timing belt change can put people off.
It will be interesting to see how things develop. I tend to keep cars for a long time so it is particularly relevant to me.0 -
Gloomendoom wrote: »It will be interesting to see how things develop. I tend to keep cars for a long time so it is particularly relevant to me.
Me too. But the main issue of the battery should have an indicator of its health - eg: the 12 bars in a new Leaf, and second hand ones advertised as 11 bars or 10. As long as the trade doesn't learn how to "clock" these you should be able to buy with some confidence..0 -
Gloomendoom wrote: »What does an EV not require at a routine dealer service that an ICE car does?
Oil, an oil filter and an air filter? Everything else will be the same and, no doubt, some form of essential battery/charging system check will be devised to make up the losses.
Its not just routine service, its all the components no longer there that cannot, by definition, go wrong.
Spark plugs
Fuel injectors
Distributor
Alternator
Gear cables
Brakes
Fuel system
Timing belt/chain
All those bits and pieces that connect to the crankshaft and go up and down and round etc.
Turbo
A whole load of gaskets
Brakes (need replacing much less frequently)
Numerous belts driving other systems
Exhaust system from manifold through to catalytic converter and ad blue system and silencer etc
Various sensors that monitor the fuel system and also filters
Cooling system (possibly, i think most are closed loop on EVs? Unless you have a Leaf in which case they just dispensed with it altogether, oops )
Transmission system (100x more complex on an ICE)
... and no doubt a sh*t load of other stuff I've forgotten.
Theres no need to diagnose the issues that arise with any of those, to sell spares for them, to fit them.
Thats why dealers are worried.0 -
AnotherJoe wrote: »Its not just routine service, its all the components no longer there that cannot, by definition, go wrong.
Spark plugs
Fuel injectors
Distributor
Alternator
Gear cables
Brakes
Fuel system
Timing belt/chain
All those bits and pieces that connect to the crankshaft and go up and down and round etc.
Turbo
A whole load of gaskets
Brakes (need replacing much less frequently)
Numerous belts driving other systems
Exhaust system from manifold through to catalytic converter and ad blue system and silencer etc
Various sensors that monitor the fuel system and also filters
Cooling system (possibly, i think most are closed loop on EVs? Unless you have a Leaf in which case they just dispensed with it altogether, oops )
Transmission system (100x more complex on an ICE)
... and no doubt a sh*t load of other stuff I've forgotten.
Theres no need to diagnose the issues that arise with any of those, to sell spares for them, to fit them.
Thats why dealers are worried.
So why does the Tesla Model S only score 50% in the 2017 Whatcar reliability survey? Only Land Rover and Jeep were worse.0 -
I've read something like, drive train EV vs Internal Combustion is 30 vs 2000 moving parts.Gloomendoom wrote: »So why does the Tesla Model S only score 50% in the 2017 Whatcar reliability survey? Only Land Rover and Jeep were worse.
IC drive trains have had at least 100 years of refinement and even then, high reliability only arrived in the 1980s with Japanese QC thinking.
Give EV a few more years and they'll be as reliable as... well, iPhones. Most problems will be software related.0 -
Gloomendoom wrote: »Agreed, I don't doubt that overall maintenance will be reduced when compared to an ICEV, however, there is a lot more to an EV than an electric motor. Things will still wear out, break and need replacing. It's too early to tell exactly what and how often
If a 300,000 mile comparison to competitors on the EV you've mentioned isn't enough, then what sort of period are you waiting for?
If servicing and maintenance from day one is less, and less costly, then are you expecting some sort of reversal in later life, bearing in mind that ICE costs increase as the vehicle gets older?Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)
For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.0 -
Here's a retro EV that stole my heart a year or so back when I first saw it. Priced around €12k perhaps, and probably ideal as a second car for city/work commutes?
The Tiny Electric Microlino Is The Ideal City Mobility AnswerMart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)
For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.0
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