Charging Order? The myth

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  • DAKOTA45
    DAKOTA45 Posts: 592 Forumite
    eggbox wrote: »
    If they liked it that much I'm surprised they were so easily put off by your neighbour?

    The neighbour somehow found out who our buyers were and tried to sell them the little piece of land (which houses my septic tank and which we had been to court over) at a really high price (50k and it's only worth 2k) and when they refused, he said he would take them to court if they bought our house… saying that the septic tank was leaking over his land and that it had caused substantial damage…all lies... he was so nasty the buyers pulled out saying they didn't want to live next to someone like him.
  • eggbox
    eggbox Posts: 1,774 Forumite
    First Anniversary First Post
    I suppose on that info you can't really blame them for pulling out?

    I have sent you a PM which contains the BL Charging Order info you were searching for, ok.
  • DAKOTA45
    DAKOTA45 Posts: 592 Forumite
    eggbox wrote: »
    I suppose on that info you can't really blame them for pulling out?

    I have sent you a PM which contains the BL Charging Order info you were searching for, ok.

    Indeed… oh, thanks, btw for the PM, I would be really interested to read that paper but I have no idea how to send or receive PMs.. Yours seems to have disappeared into the ether… I would send you my email address if I could work out how to PM… perhaps I don't have that facility?:(
  • sourcrates
    sourcrates Posts: 28,876 Ambassador
    First Anniversary Name Dropper First Post Photogenic
    DAKOTA45 wrote: »
    Indeed… oh, thanks, btw for the PM, I would be really interested to read that paper but I have no idea how to send or receive PMs.. Yours seems to have disappeared into the ether… I would send you my email address if I could work out how to PM… perhaps I don't have that facility?:(

    If you look at the top of the thread, you will see it says "welcome then your username" "you last visited at xxxxxxxx" next to that is a clicky link "private messages" click on that, takes you straight there.
    I’m a Forum Ambassador and I support the Forum Team on the Debt free wannabe, Credit file and ratings, and Bankruptcy and living with it boards. If you need any help on these boards, do let me know. Please note that Ambassadors are not moderators. Any posts you spot in breach of the Forum Rules should be reported via the report button, or by emailing forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com. All views are my own and not the official line of MoneySavingExpert.For free non-judgemental debt advice, contact either Stepchange, National Debtline, or CitizensAdviceBureaux.Link to SOA Calculator- https://www.stoozing.com/soa.php The "provit letter" is here-https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/2607247/letter-when-you-know-nothing-about-about-the-debt-aka-prove-it-letter
  • DAKOTA45
    DAKOTA45 Posts: 592 Forumite
    edited 5 April 2015 at 12:21PM
    Hi Eggbox…

    Hmm.. I wonder where your message went?

    If you could possibly send that BL paper, it would be helpful for my appeal… they made a late application to modify the JO they obtained and I want to make sure the Judge knows they are well versed in matters of this kind so should have made their intentions clear prior to or at the hearing and not 4 weeks later…

    Not sure if this approach will work but failure to follow CPR is all I have at the moment… plus my counterclaim if needs must!


    Main Site Forum User CP Community New Posts Forum Search Quick Links Log Out
    Welcome, DAKOTA45. You last visited: Yesterday at 6:01 PM Private Messages (PMs): Unread 0, Total 0.
  • DAKOTA45
    DAKOTA45 Posts: 592 Forumite
    sourcrates wrote: »
    If you look at the top of the thread, you will see it says "welcome then your username" "you last visited at xxxxxxxx" next to that is a clicky link "private messages" click on that, takes you straight there.

    Yeah… thanks, but I have been in there & it sez there are no messages...:(
  • eggbox
    eggbox Posts: 1,774 Forumite
    First Anniversary First Post
    BL article

    The growth in personal debt, together with property prices, has meant that charging orders have become a popular debt recovery tool. A creditor obtains a judgment against a debtor and then a charging order on the debtor’s property. A number of creditors, particularly in the finance and
    debt purchase sectors, having converted an unsecured debt to one with some security, sit back and wait for the debtor to pay the debt off as and when the debtor tries to sell the property. Unfortunately, sitting back and waiting for payment carries a number of risks:

    A mortgagee with an earlier charge on the property might repossess and sell the property at a time when there is insufficient equity in the property to pay all or even part of the debt to the creditor.

    Property prices might go down, wiping out any equity in the property. If the original judgment does not attract interest – as could be the case for debts less than £5,000 or given in proceedings relating to the Consumer Credit Act 1974 – the value of the debt will be eroded over time by inflation.

    Some creditors will perhaps apply for an order to sell the property rather than wait and take the risks.
    However there is another, more fundamental, risk which creditors are beginning to come across in respect of charging orders obtained after April 2003. Where a debtor owns property with another person, for example husband and wife, the debtor and the other person can, despite the charging order, easily sell the property and pay nothing to the creditor.

    Before April 2003
    Once a charging order was obtained against a debtor over his interest in a property, whether he owned it solely or jointly, the charging order was registered as a caution at the Land Registry. This meant that the creditor or his solicitors would get 14 days’ notice from the Land Registry that the debtor and other
    owner or owners were trying to get rid of the caution, probably with the aim of selling the property.
    The fact that such notice had to be given meant that a debtor knew he could not sell the property before the creditor knew about it and took steps to prevent the sale. So the debtor would usually pay the creditor before selling the property.

    Cautions which were registered prior to April 2003 still remain effective and the creditor will get 14 days’ notice of any attempt to get rid of the caution.

    April 2003 and afterwards
    The Land Registration Act 2002 (LRA) and Land Registration Rules 2003 (LRR) introduced significant changes to land registration procedures. Cautions were no longer to be used. Instead when a creditor obtained a charging order against a debtor:

    If the property was solely owned by the debtor, or all owners of the property were debtors, for example husband and wife owning the property jointly and being joint debtors, then an ‘agreed
    notice’ was to be filed at the Land Registry by the creditor. Effectively this was almost as good as
    having a mortgage. The debtor could not realistically sell the property without repaying the debt to the creditor.

    However, if the property was jointly owned by the debtor with other nondebtors, for example husband and wife owning the property and only one of them being the actual debtor, the creditor was not entitled to enter an agreed notice. Instead the creditor could only file a ‘restriction’ at the Land Registry in the
    following terms: “No disposition of the registered estate is to be registered without a certificate signed by the applicant for registration or his conveyancer that written notice of the disposition was given to creditor...] being the person with the benefit of an interim/final charging order on the beneficial interest of [name of... debtor].”

    This restriction was, and remains, practically useless.

    The effect of the restriction
    The debtor and his joint owner’s freedom to sell the property is not affected by such a restriction. They could sell the property as if there was no charging order against the debtor. All that was required was that the new buyers or their solicitor write to the creditor informing them that they now owned the property and then confirm to the Land Registry that they had given that notice. Then the buyers could register the property with no further complications. The creditor, who is sitting back, waiting to get paid, instead just receives a letter confirming that a sale has already taken place, typically a week or two after
    the sale so there is little they can do to get the debt paid. In theory the creditor could apply for a freezing order against the debtor to try and obtain the cash from the sale proceeds. However, most creditors will
    never make such an application:

    The cost of applying for such a freezing order would run into thousands of pounds.
    The debtor might have spent the cash from the sale of the property before the freezing order was obtained, so there is little, if anything, for the freezing order to bite on.

    An effective restriction
    A restriction worded as follows would provide a creditor with sufficient protection: “No disposition of the
    registered estate is to be completed by registration without a certificate signed by [name the creditor with the benefit of the charging order and their address], being the person with the benefit of an interim/final charging order on the beneficial interest of [name of judgment debtor], or his solicitor that he was given written notice of the disposition at least 14 days prior to the disposition or without an order of the court which granted the interim/final charging order.”
    If the wording suggested above were to be allowed, a creditor would have the right to be notified before a sale. The fact that such notice has to be given would mean that a debtor will know he cannot sell the property before the creditor finds out about the potential sale – and of course takes steps to prevent the sale until the debt is paid.
    So the debtor will pay the creditor before selling the property. Perhaps at some stage, the LRA will
    be amended to allow such an effectively worded restriction. In the meantime, a creditor which obtains a charging order against a debtor who owns property jointly could try to persuade the Land Registry to allow the more effectively worded restriction set out above. If that attempt fails then the creditor could apply to the court for an order that the Land Registry must allow that wording.

    Application to the Land Registry
    The Land Registry may approve an application to allow a restriction in non-standard wording if it appears:

    That the terms of the proposed restriction are reasonable, and That applying the proposed restriction would be straightforward, and not place an unreasonable burden on him. In our view, the Land Registry should allow a restriction which actually gives some protection to creditors. However,
    we have yet to make such an application and suspect that the Land Registry will not readily allow such non-standard wording.

    Applications to the court
    If the Land Registry refuses to allow a non-standard word restriction, then a creditor may wish to consider making an application to the court. Inevitably there are risks with this:
    Creditors should bear in mind that if the application is unsuccessful then they will have wasted the costs of making the application.
    So far as we can ascertain, an application along the lines suggested has not yet been made. A court may adopt a restrictive view and state that a creditor may have nothing other than the standard-worded restriction set out in the LRA.

    Conclusion
    The current protection afforded to creditors who have a charging order on property owned jointly by a debtor with others is useless.
    Unless the creditor can persuade the Land Registry or the courts to allow a more effectively worded restriction, the creditor must look at other ways of recovering the debt.
  • DAKOTA45
    DAKOTA45 Posts: 592 Forumite
    edited 5 April 2015 at 1:15PM
    Many thanks, Eggbox.. that is really helpful!! :T
    You don't happen to know the date this article was written by any chance…?

    I have highlighted a couple of areas which may be relevant in my case… I wonder if LRR could comment here, in that the creditor should apply in the first instance to Land Registry to request modification of the text of a standard form k restriction… otherwise, aren't they just bypassing LRR by going directly to the court? If the court can just waive the LRR, what on Earth is the point of having any rules?!
    eggbox wrote: »
    BL article

    The growth in personal debt, together with property prices, has meant that charging orders have become a popular debt recovery tool. A creditor obtains a judgment against a debtor and then a charging order on the debtor’s property. A number of creditors, particularly in the finance and
    debt purchase sectors, having converted an unsecured debt to one with some security, sit back and wait for the debtor to pay the debt off as and when the debtor tries to sell the property. Unfortunately, sitting back and waiting for payment carries a number of risks:

    A mortgagee with an earlier charge on the property might repossess and sell the property at a time when there is insufficient equity in the property to pay all or even part of the debt to the creditor.

    Property prices might go down, wiping out any equity in the property. If the original judgment does not attract interest – as could be the case for debts less than £5,000 or given in proceedings relating to the Consumer Credit Act 1974 – the value of the debt will be eroded over time by inflation.

    Some creditors will perhaps apply for an order to sell the property rather than wait and take the risks.
    However there is another, more fundamental, risk which creditors are beginning to come across in respect of charging orders obtained after April 2003. Where a debtor owns property with another person, for example husband and wife, the debtor and the other person can, despite the charging order, easily sell the property and pay nothing to the creditor.

    Before April 2003
    Once a charging order was obtained against a debtor over his interest in a property, whether he owned it solely or jointly, the charging order was registered as a caution at the Land Registry. This meant that the creditor or his solicitors would get 14 days’ notice from the Land Registry that the debtor and other
    owner or owners were trying to get rid of the caution, probably with the aim of selling the property.
    The fact that such notice had to be given meant that a debtor knew he could not sell the property before the creditor knew about it and took steps to prevent the sale. So the debtor would usually pay the creditor before selling the property.

    Cautions which were registered prior to April 2003 still remain effective and the creditor will get 14 days’ notice of any attempt to get rid of the caution.

    April 2003 and afterwards
    The Land Registration Act 2002 (LRA) and Land Registration Rules 2003 (LRR) introduced significant changes to land registration procedures. Cautions were no longer to be used. Instead when a creditor obtained a charging order against a debtor:

    If the property was solely owned by the debtor, or all owners of the property were debtors, for example husband and wife owning the property jointly and being joint debtors, then an ‘agreed
    notice’ was to be filed at the Land Registry by the creditor. Effectively this was almost as good as
    having a mortgage. The debtor could not realistically sell the property without repaying the debt to the creditor.

    However, if the property was jointly owned by the debtor with other nondebtors, for example husband and wife owning the property and only one of them being the actual debtor, the creditor was not entitled to enter an agreed notice. Instead the creditor could only file a ‘restriction’ at the Land Registry in the
    following terms: “No disposition of the registered estate is to be registered without a certificate signed by the applicant for registration or his conveyancer that written notice of the disposition was given to creditor...] being the person with the benefit of an interim/final charging order on the beneficial interest of [name of... debtor].”

    This restriction was, and remains, practically useless.

    The effect of the restriction
    The debtor and his joint owner’s freedom to sell the property is not affected by such a restriction. They could sell the property as if there was no charging order against the debtor. All that was required was that the new buyers or their solicitor write to the creditor informing them that they now owned the property and then confirm to the Land Registry that they had given that notice. Then the buyers could register the property with no further complications. The creditor, who is sitting back, waiting to get paid, instead just receives a letter confirming that a sale has already taken place, typically a week or two after
    the sale so there is little they can do to get the debt paid. In theory the creditor could apply for a freezing order against the debtor to try and obtain the cash from the sale proceeds. However, most creditors will
    never make such an application:

    The cost of applying for such a freezing order would run into thousands of pounds.
    The debtor might have spent the cash from the sale of the property before the freezing order was obtained, so there is little, if anything, for the freezing order to bite on.

    An effective restriction
    A restriction worded as follows would provide a creditor with sufficient protection: “No disposition of the
    registered estate is to be completed by registration without a certificate signed by [name the creditor with the benefit of the charging order and their address], being the person with the benefit of an interim/final charging order on the beneficial interest of [name of judgment debtor], or his solicitor that he was given written notice of the disposition at least 14 days prior to the disposition or without an order of the court which granted the interim/final charging order.”
    If the wording suggested above were to be allowed, a creditor would have the right to be notified before a sale. The fact that such notice has to be given would mean that a debtor will know he cannot sell the property before the creditor finds out about the potential sale – and of course takes steps to prevent the sale until the debt is paid.
    So the debtor will pay the creditor before selling the property. Perhaps at some stage, the LRA will
    be amended to allow such an effectively worded restriction. In the meantime, a creditor which obtains a charging order against a debtor who owns property jointly could try to persuade the Land Registry to allow the more effectively worded restriction set out above. If that attempt fails then the creditor could apply to the court for an order that the Land Registry must allow that wording.

    Application to the Land Registry
    The Land Registry may approve an application to allow a restriction in non-standard wording if it appears:

    That the terms of the proposed restriction are reasonable, and That applying the proposed restriction would be straightforward, and not place an unreasonable burden on him. In our view, the Land Registry should allow a restriction which actually gives some protection to creditors. However,
    we have yet to make such an application and suspect that the Land Registry will not readily allow such non-standard wording.


    Applications to the court
    If the Land Registry refuses to allow a non-standard word restriction, then a creditor may wish to consider making an application to the court. Inevitably there are risks with this:
    Creditors should bear in mind that if the application is unsuccessful then they will have wasted the costs of making the application.
    So far as we can ascertain, an application along the lines suggested has not yet been made. A court may adopt a restrictive view and state that a creditor may have nothing other than the standard-worded restriction set out in the LRA.

    Conclusion
    The current protection afforded to creditors who have a charging order on property owned jointly by a debtor with others is useless.
    Unless the creditor can persuade the Land Registry or the courts to allow a more effectively worded restriction, the creditor must look at other ways of recovering the debt.
  • eggbox
    eggbox Posts: 1,774 Forumite
    First Anniversary First Post
    Dakota

    I don't know the publication date of the article or when the rule changes actually came into force. LRR a may be able to help on that?

    As far as I am aware, the act got more scrutinised and publicised around 2008/2009 when debt collection agencies began to use a CO as a recovery tactic when the Recession began to ensnare people who never dreamed they would default on a debt. As a lot of these people were "educated" people (Ian Cresswell of the famous Phoenix Recoveries v Dr Ian Cresswell case was a Doctor for instance) a lot chose to read up on the law rather than sitting back and getting shafted.
  • DAKOTA45
    DAKOTA45 Posts: 592 Forumite
    eggbox wrote: »
    Dakota

    I don't know the publication date of the article or when the rule changes actually came into force. LRR a may be able to help on that?

    As far as I am aware, the act got more scrutinised and publicised around 2008/2009 when debt collection agencies began to use a CO as a recovery tactic when the Recession began to ensnare people who never dreamed they would default on a debt. As a lot of these people were "educated" people (Ian Cresswell of the famous Phoenix Recoveries v Dr Ian Cresswell case was a Doctor for instance) a lot chose to read up on the law rather than sitting back and getting shafted.

    Yes… the bankers dropped us right in it, didn't they? Many people were made redundant (my husband being one) due the the recession…some even lost their homes... The goal posts were moved overnight… yet those who caused the mess were bailed out by the taxpayer to carry on… they are still paying themselves obscene salaries whilst the rest of us struggle through no fault of our own… no bail out for the debts of hard working people!!
    We only managed to hang onto our home because my mum died and left a small inheritance which I used to pay off the arrears on the mortgage… My husband was forced to seek work overseas and remains there to this day… I have really suffered these past few years and am being treated for stress and anxiety and now I am so worried that this horrible neighbour will try & make me homeless…(he actually told me that h intends to see us bankrupt!).
    I am wondering if I get the charging order removed, he will pursue other means to get the money...:(
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