Can a shopkeeper refuse to give change?

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  • bris
    bris Posts: 10,548 Forumite
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    unholyangel wrote: »
    While theres no law that expressly states it, that happening would go against the rules of contract law and contract formation where the acceptance needs to exactly match the terms of the offer.

    Theres also the various laws around unfair or misleading trading practices to consider.
    Accepting the fact that you have been warned that no change is given forms part of that contract before acceptance has taken place so you are wrong.
  • unholyangel
    unholyangel Posts: 16,863 Forumite
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    bris wrote: »
    Accepting the fact that you have been warned that no change is given forms part of that contract before acceptance has taken place so you are wrong.

    I thought we'd already established that no change given means they won't change your £10 for 10 £1 coins.

    Not to mention it would fall foul of unfair term legislation in addition to the unfair advertising/trading practices.

    They are particularly big on misleading pricing right now - which was their reasoning behind prohibiting traders from charging different amounts depending on what payment method people used (which is another law they'd fall foul of refusing to give change if they would accept a card payment, cheque, bank transfer etc for the exact amount), because it let them advertise one cheaper price yet potentially charge a different price at the end.
    You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means - Inigo Montoya, The Princess Bride
  • OlliesDad
    OlliesDad Posts: 1,825 Forumite
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    I see my lack of Office watching has let me down :rotfl:
  • NBLondon
    NBLondon Posts: 5,530 Forumite
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    unholyangel wrote: »
    I thought we'd already established that no change given means they won't change your £10 for 10 £1 coins.
    Not necessarily... It could mean "No, we won't give you change for the bus - please don't annoy us by asking" or it could mean "We won't give change" in the sense of "Exact Change Only" which is what the signs on buses used to say when I were a lad... Now you could say that there's an ambiguity there which might make it challengeable as misleading.

    What about the case of shopkeeper does not have enough actual change in the till when customer offers a £50 note for a packet of Polos? They are entitled to ask for alternative payment "haven't you got anything smaller?" or decline your custom at that point. As you said - insisting on exact change for every transaction is bad business practice. Given that handling of physical cash can cost the shopkeeper time/effort/banking charges I can foresee the time when some businesses might actually try and say "Contactless Only" and accept that they lose a few customers, if enough other customers prefer that option.
    Wash your Knobs and Knockers... Keep the Postie safe!
  • zagfles
    zagfles Posts: 20,323 Forumite
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    unholyangel wrote: »
    No it doesn't. They (for example) are offering to buy the product at £2.99 - they then offer to pay for it by using a £10 note. The two are separate.
    What says the shopkeeper must provide exact change, rather than the customer must provide exact money?
    As for refusing notes, thats a whole different scenario because the shopkeeper isn't changing the price of anything.
    No-one's changing the price. If the shopkeeper can refuse to accept a £50, why can't he refuse to accepts a £10?
    As for the discussion around legal tender...it is basically a defence in english law if you are sued for non-payment of debt, that you offered to pay in legal tender. It does not govern the rules of what currency or notes must be used for ordinary transactions. A retailer could opt to only be paid in brass buttons if they so wished, just it would be a silly business decision not to accept the currency widely used in the country you're operating.
    So he could make a business decision to accept brass buttons, but not a business decision to accept, say, only coins for a £2.99 transaction? Is that what you're saying?
  • unholyangel
    unholyangel Posts: 16,863 Forumite
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    zagfles wrote: »
    What says the shopkeeper must provide exact change, rather than the customer must provide exact money? No-one's changing the price.

    If the shopkeeper can refuse to accept a £50, why can't he refuse to accepts a £10?

    So he could make a business decision to accept brass buttons, but not a business decision to accept, say, only coins for a £2.99 transaction? Is that what you're saying?

    1. Because you agree a price of £x - the terms under which payment is made is completely different to the term setting the price. If you overpay your bills, you're entitled to the excess back - the trader has no claim in law to it. Not to mention how bad it is for your accounts to have a discrepancy in the till.

    2. You're comparing apples and oranges. One scenario where a trader refuses to accept £50 and does not enter into a transaction against one where the trader accepts the £10, enters into the contract but then refuses to give any change.

    3. How did you so spectacularly manage to misunderstand what I was saying? If he can determine only to accept brass buttons, then he can determine to only be paid in coin. What he cannot do is agree one price, take someones money then refuse to give change.
    You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means - Inigo Montoya, The Princess Bride
  • shaun_from_Africa
    shaun_from_Africa Posts: 12,858 Forumite
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    powerful_Rogue wrote: »
    In fact, a postage stamp is legal tender. A busdriver would have to accept that as currency.

    I really wish it was true because if it was, I have a foolproof method to earn an instant 5+% return on my savings.

    Simply buy 180 first class stamps from Costco for £114 delivered to my house then take those stamps and pay them into the bank at their face value of £120.60.
  • zagfles
    zagfles Posts: 20,323 Forumite
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    unholyangel wrote: »
    1. Because you agree a price of £x - the terms under which payment is made is completely different to the term setting the price. If you overpay your bills, you're entitled to the excess back - the trader has no claim in law to it. Not to mention how bad it is for your accounts to have a discrepancy in the till.
    But vending machines, parking machines, parking meters, payphones etc are exempt? As they often allow overpayment without giving change. Is there a different law when using a payment machine?
    2. You're comparing apples and oranges. One scenario where a trader refuses to accept £50 and does not enter into a transaction against one where the trader accepts the £10, enters into the contract but then refuses to give any change.
    I wasn't expecting him to take the £10 without the customer knowing, or being told, he can't/won't give change. I was thinking about a scenario where he doesn't have change, or he wants exact money only.
    3. How did you so spectacularly manage to misunderstand what I was saying? If he can determine only to accept brass buttons, then he can determine to only be paid in coin. What he cannot do is agree one price, take someones money then refuse to give change.
    But payment machines can, apparently?
  • unholyangel
    unholyangel Posts: 16,863 Forumite
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    zagfles wrote: »
    But vending machines, parking machines, parking meters, payphones etc are exempt? As they often allow overpayment without giving change. Is there a different law when using a payment machine?I wasn't expecting him to take the £10 without the customer knowing, or being told, he can't/won't give change. I was thinking about a scenario where he doesn't have change, or he wants exact money only. But payment machines can, apparently?

    Next and debenhams used to flout DSRs.....didn't mean what they were doing was legal though and nor does it show any support in law of it.

    As for the vending question...I've never had any problems with vending machines or parking machines not giving change. Theres usually an attendant of sorts who has access to the machine or who can do it manually.

    But to pose one of your own sort of questions to you.....vending machines (and other machines) sometimes wont give you the item you paid for, does that mean you think its legal for a trader to take your money and not give you anything in return?
    You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means - Inigo Montoya, The Princess Bride
  • Rainbowgirl84
    Rainbowgirl84 Posts: 1,175 Forumite
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    Is it legal for a 'seller' to say exact money only...no change given?
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