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  • FIRST POST
    • Former MSE Andrea
    • By Former MSE Andrea 10th Jan 13, 9:41 AM
    • 9,418Posts
    • 22,339Thanks
    Former MSE Andrea
    Ask Atos Healthcare disability assessment questions
    • #1
    • 10th Jan 13, 9:41 AM
    Ask Atos Healthcare disability assessment questions 10th Jan 13 at 9:41 AM
    Atos Healthcare assesses disability on behalf of the government. This highly controversial issue has been discussed many times on these forums and in the press.

    This is a trial thread to allow Atos to provide guidance about the process. We have agreed, but it can only post specifically within this thread.

    Subjects it can answer questions on include:

    • Clarifications about the Work Capability Assessment questionnaire
    • Appointments/Assessments
    • Travel and travel expenses to the assessment
    • Home visits
    • Health Care Professionals and their qualifications (but not specific individuals)

    It won't be able to answer questions on:

    • The policy for decisions itself (DWP is responsible for this, not Atos)
    • The appeals process
    • The DWP staff who made the decision
    • Questions that would need your personal details
    • It can obviously only answer questions on the parts of the ESA Work Capability Assessment it carries out.

    Why we’re allowing this:

    As the issue is controversial and often causes anger amongst some affected, we think it even more important to facilitate the ability for people to contact Atos directly and get answers in a public space. Many people have demanded answers on this forum – this should help them get them – we will be monitoring the trial to see if it does.

    Of course this is not an endorsement of the firm or government policy by MSE or Martin.

    Before we allowed this to happen we asked and received assurances that during this (initial trial) period they would provide sufficient resources to answer people’s questions.

    Please don’t debate the firm or policy in this thread

    We have the forum Discussion Time board which allows discussion of that. This thread is a question and answer thread.

    To ask a question

    Just click reply below to ask your question and the Atos representative will aim to answer your question within 2 working days (ie Mon-Fri). More complicated questions could take longer so keeping posts simple, with one question per post, should help get a quicker response.

    You’ll recognise the Atos Healthcare representative as the username will be displayed in bold purple and have a special representative signature.

    As always, abusive posts will be removed – please report any inappropriate posts to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com and don’t feed the trolls.
    Last edited by Former MSE Andrea; 10-01-2013 at 4:02 PM.
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Page 91
    • Richie-from-the-Boro
    • By Richie-from-the-Boro 28th Jul 13, 11:45 PM
    • 6,559 Posts
    • 4,898 Thanks
    Richie-from-the-Boro
    ~~~snip~~~
    - GOV's own figures, up to 1,300 persons dying after being put into the WRAG
    While WRAG is being mentioned here .. .. and .. .. here.

    .. .. lawyers for Annemarie Campbell will this week issue a claim for damages against DWP under the Equality Act, claiming discrimination, and possibly also harassment and a failure to make reasonable adjustments.
    Disclaimer : Everything I write on this forum is my opinion. I try to be an even-handed poster and accept that you at times may not agree with these opinions or how I choose to express them, this is not my problem. The Disabled : If years cannot be added to their lives, at least life can be added to their years - Alf Morris - ℜ
  • Atos Healthcare representative
    QUESTION
    So what's happened to all these so called Mental Health Champions atos are supposed to be using???????
    Originally posted by schrodie
    Hi schrodie

    I donít know whether a MFC was consulted during the assessment that you mention. All of the health care professionals who conduct assessments receive training in how to consider mental health issues for the purpose of the Work Capability Assessment as part of their initial training. They also have access to Mental Function Champions for advice on anything they need assistance with during the assessment process.
    ďOfficial Company Representative
    I am the official company representative of Atos Healthcare. MSE has given permission for me to post in response to queries about the company, so that I can help solve issues. You can see my name on the companies with permission to post list. I am not allowed to tout for business at all. If you believe I am please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com This does NOT imply any form of approval of my company or its products by MSE"
  • Atos Healthcare representative
    - thanks for your response ATOS rep
    - it was just that no one seems to have known you / DWP give out piecework rates before
    - can you confirm that notwithstanding you are not contracted for PIP yet, that those PIP assessors will be using your LiMA software profiling model?
    Originally posted by Richie-from-the-Boro
    Hi Richie-from-the-Boro.

    LiMA belongs to the DWP, so you would need to ask them about its use.
    ďOfficial Company Representative
    I am the official company representative of Atos Healthcare. MSE has given permission for me to post in response to queries about the company, so that I can help solve issues. You can see my name on the companies with permission to post list. I am not allowed to tout for business at all. If you believe I am please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com This does NOT imply any form of approval of my company or its products by MSE"
    • schrodie
    • By schrodie 29th Jul 13, 3:56 PM
    • 7,667 Posts
    • 11,281 Thanks
    schrodie
    Hi Richie-from-the-Boro.

    LiMA belongs to the DWP, so you would need to ask them about its use.
    Originally posted by Atos Healthcare representative
    It may "belong" to the DWP they certainly didn't develop it to throw people off their benefits did they!!!
    Last edited by schrodie; 29-07-2013 at 5:23 PM.
    • schrodie
    • By schrodie 29th Jul 13, 4:00 PM
    • 7,667 Posts
    • 11,281 Thanks
    schrodie
    Hi schrodie

    I don’t know whether a MFC was consulted during the assessment that you mention. All of the health care professionals who conduct assessments receive training in how to consider mental health issues for the purpose of the Work Capability Assessment as part of their initial training. They also have access to Mental Function Champions for advice on anything they need assistance with during the assessment process.
    Originally posted by Atos Healthcare representative
    Clearly NOT in this and most likely many many many more cases involving mental health assessments being carried out by unqualified so called atos "healthcare professionals"!! Had you read the damning report you'd have known that an "MFC" was not consulted!

    Hence the damning report and atos loosing its monopoly on carrying out WCAs due to sub-standard reports and not carrying out the procedures these "HCPs" are supposed to do preferring to stick to their given targets!
    Last edited by schrodie; 29-07-2013 at 5:25 PM.
  • Atos Healthcare representative
    Atos rep - i live in Scotland, and will have a PIP assessment due soon, are these carried out by the same place that assessed my ESA? Or have you sub contracted to the NHS?
    Originally posted by Widelats
    Hi Widelats

    None of the sites used for ESA assessments are being used for PIP assessments. Iím not able to answer any questions about the PIP process or contract though. This thread just covers the WCA process. I would expect your PIP appointment letter to give you details of where any assessment you need will be, along with contact details if you have further questions that arenít covered on either the DWP or Atos Healthcare websites.
    ďOfficial Company Representative
    I am the official company representative of Atos Healthcare. MSE has given permission for me to post in response to queries about the company, so that I can help solve issues. You can see my name on the companies with permission to post list. I am not allowed to tout for business at all. If you believe I am please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com This does NOT imply any form of approval of my company or its products by MSE"
    • Widelats
    • By Widelats 30th Jul 13, 1:17 PM
    • 3,640 Posts
    • 2,716 Thanks
    Widelats
    OK cheers.
    Owed out = lots.
    • schrodie
    • By schrodie 1st Aug 13, 3:08 PM
    • 7,667 Posts
    • 11,281 Thanks
    schrodie
    Hi Richie-from-the-Boro.

    LiMA belongs to the DWP, so you would need to ask them about its use.
    Originally posted by Atos Healthcare representative
    This may bring back [happy] memories re the software that decides the WCA outcome that atos use!!!

    Here
  • Olive Oyl
    Hello Atos rep .

    Well My letter letter arrived on Friday and I'm now going to be interviewed for the process of moving me from income support with lower rate DLA to ESA

    How do I try and explain my anxiety when it's so bad that I can't even see my doctor ?

    In a way i'm secure at home , I don't answer the door or any phone calls .

    Each day is very much like the last day/week/month and that's how I cope .

    I'm lonely most of the time and often feel as though I can't go on like this but the thought of actually visiting my GP causes more anxiety so it's self perpetuating .

    No one counts the number of calls I've made to the Samaritans or the days looking out of my window wishing I could join the world .

    Someone mentioned gather all medical advice and send with the ESA50 I can't do that simply because I don't have any .

    Any advice would be welcome . TY
    Last edited by Olive Oyl; 06-08-2013 at 12:43 AM.
    • schrodie
    • By schrodie 6th Aug 13, 9:20 AM
    • 7,667 Posts
    • 11,281 Thanks
    schrodie
    If some one from atos is coming to see you or you are going to see them for your own protection take someone with you to take notes and/or request a recording.

    See Here
    Last edited by schrodie; 06-08-2013 at 9:27 AM.
  • Atos Healthcare representative
    Hello Atos rep .

    Well My letter letter arrived on Friday and I'm now going to be interviewed for the process of moving me from income support with lower rate DLA to ESA

    How do I try and explain my anxiety when it's so bad that I can't even see my doctor ?

    In a way i'm secure at home , I don't answer the door or any phone calls .

    Each day is very much like the last day/week/month and that's how I cope .

    I'm lonely most of the time and often feel as though I can't go on like this but the thought of actually visiting my GP causes more anxiety so it's self perpetuating .

    No one counts the number of calls I've made to the Samaritans or the days looking out of my window wishing I could join the world .

    Someone mentioned gather all medical advice and send with the ESA50 I can't do that simply because I don't have any .

    Any advice would be welcome . TY
    Originally posted by Olive Oyl
    Hi Olive Oyl

    Donít worry if you donít have any additional information to send in. If the information that you provide in your questionnaire suggests that we could provide advice to DWP without the need for a face to face assessment with information from your GP we will try to obtain it.

    I donít have any advice on how to complete the ESA50 other than to try to fill it in as completely as you can, but if you call Jobcentre Plus they are able to help you. I hope that the various answers I have given you on here explaining the WCA process have been of some help. I donít know if you contacted us directly following one of your previous questions, but you can still do so now if you have any questions about your referral in particular.
    ďOfficial Company Representative
    I am the official company representative of Atos Healthcare. MSE has given permission for me to post in response to queries about the company, so that I can help solve issues. You can see my name on the companies with permission to post list. I am not allowed to tout for business at all. If you believe I am please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com This does NOT imply any form of approval of my company or its products by MSE"
    • schrodie
    • By schrodie 6th Aug 13, 1:19 PM
    • 7,667 Posts
    • 11,281 Thanks
    schrodie
    Hi Olive Oyl

    Donít worry if you donít have any additional information to send in. If the information that you provide in your questionnaire suggests that we could provide advice to DWP without the need for a face to face assessment with information from your GP we will try to obtain it.
    Originally posted by Atos Healthcare representative
    Please note the word TRY!! And if atos don't try hard enough then tough!!!!!!!
  • Olive Oyl
    Hi Olive Oyl

    Don’t worry if you don’t have any additional information to send in. If the information that you provide in your questionnaire suggests that we could provide advice to DWP without the need for a face to face assessment with information from your GP we will try to obtain it.

    I don’t have any advice on how to complete the ESA50 other than to try to fill it in as completely as you can, but if you call Jobcentre Plus they are able to help you. I hope that the various answers I have given you on here explaining the WCA process have been of some help. I don’t know if you contacted us directly following one of your previous questions, but you can still do so now if you have any questions about your referral in particular.
    Originally posted by Atos Healthcare representative
    TY for the reply,and I appreciate your trying to help.

    In practice it would be great if it was as simple as filling out the ESA50. I don't mean to say this in a negative way but my anxiety and depression affect me so badly that I couldn't even begin to start to complete it let alone contact Jobcenter Plus for help unless they could visit me at home, this is why earlier in the thread I mentioned that I didn't return the last one .

    Every aspect of my life is affected by my illness and the only way I can take control is to hide from the world. Yes it sounds drastic but it works for me . I now have to go through this process and quite honestly I don't know if I can .

    TY anyway . Olive .
    Last edited by Olive Oyl; 06-08-2013 at 4:08 PM.
    • Richie-from-the-Boro
    • By Richie-from-the-Boro 11th Dec 13, 12:46 AM
    • 6,559 Posts
    • 4,898 Thanks
    Richie-from-the-Boro
    ATOS do not have targets, they have statistical norms which are used to ascertain how many people a health care professional assigns to the different eligibility groups in Employment Support Allowance. An average of only 13 out of 100 fit~to~work initial assessment [pre appeal] are allowed to score sufficient points or the HCP is subjected to a 'performance review' that's their individual - group - and organisational non-target - for missing the organisational [PBR] targets statistical norm.

    If a mere 13 out of every 100 ever pass, then 87 out of 100 don't pass. That does indeed mean the DWP / DM has no targets for expected range or distribution because they are pre-exluded from the DM assessment outcomes .. .. get it now ? .. .. they do not have targets.
    __________________

    Reporter (Jackie Long): - Throughout his training Dr Bick has been reminded how tough it is to assess people's fitness to work. Officially though it is not the Atos doctors who make the final decision. Dr Bick reports will be sent to a Decision Maker at the Department for Work and Pensions who can also look at evidence from the claimant's own doctors. But our undercover doctor is told that the Atos verdict is usually decisive.

    Atos Trainer 1: - I will emphasise that we are only giving advice but the final decision belongs to the Decision Maker and I will always emphasise you will say that to the clients. Just to push, kind of, the guilt from yourself that is how I say because really they wait for our advice. But officially according to the procedure guidelines final decision is made by the Decision Makers.

    Reporter (Jackie Long): - In practice the DWP agrees with the Atos medics ninety four percent of the time. What the assessors put in their reports is usually final. More than two in every five claimants appeal against the assessments, a process which is costing forty five million pounds a year. But Dr Bick and the other trainees are told they don't need to worry about the appeal tribunals at all.

    Atos Trainer 1: - Good thing for us is that even if you make the wrong decision because you have no evidence. You don't see xrays. You don't see ECG. You just only see the person so you can be wrong but you never go to the tribunal. This is a good think. You never go to the tribunal. So you won't be blamed.

    _____________________

    Oh and by the way, while we are on the subject a new episode of Yes, Prime Minister starts shortly.
    Originally posted by Richie-from-the-Boro
    And almost exactly one year after posting the above the 'statistical norms' see the bright shining light of scrutiny.
    Disclaimer : Everything I write on this forum is my opinion. I try to be an even-handed poster and accept that you at times may not agree with these opinions or how I choose to express them, this is not my problem. The Disabled : If years cannot be added to their lives, at least life can be added to their years - Alf Morris - ℜ
  • Atos Healthcare representative
    And almost exactly one year after posting the above the 'statistical norms' see the bright shining light of scrutiny.
    Originally posted by Richie-from-the-Boro
    Hi Richie-from-the-Boro

    Thanks for your point. I know that this story could worry some people who are due to have a Work Capability Assessment, so I want to clarify the point again. Norms are used solely as a management and quality assurance tool and are not used to affect individual assessments. Reports are never written, or changed, in order to achieve an expected norm. The advice given as a result of every individual assessment needs to be clinically reasonable and justified.
    ďOfficial Company Representative
    I am the official company representative of Atos Healthcare. MSE has given permission for me to post in response to queries about the company, so that I can help solve issues. You can see my name on the companies with permission to post list. I am not allowed to tout for business at all. If you believe I am please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com This does NOT imply any form of approval of my company or its products by MSE"
    • schrodie
    • By schrodie 11th Dec 13, 7:07 PM
    • 7,667 Posts
    • 11,281 Thanks
    schrodie

    Norms are used solely as a management and quality assurance tool and are not used to affect individual assessments.

    Reports are never written, or changed, in order to achieve an expected norm.
    Originally posted by Atos Healthcare representative


    Oh come on!!!





    The advice given as a result of every individual assessment needs to be clinically reasonable and justified.
    Originally posted by Atos Healthcare representative
    Personably I would expect the advice to be clinically accurate rather than just reasonable, although having targets may not make this level of accuracy possible!!
    • Richie-from-the-Boro
    • By Richie-from-the-Boro 11th Dec 13, 11:54 PM
    • 6,559 Posts
    • 4,898 Thanks
    Richie-from-the-Boro
    Hi Richie-from-the-Boro

    Thanks for your point. I know that this story could worry some people who are due to have a Work Capability Assessment, so I want to clarify the point again. Norms are used solely as a management and quality assurance tool and are not used to affect individual assessments. Reports are never written, or changed, in order to achieve an expected norm. The advice given as a result of every individual assessment needs to be clinically reasonable and justified.
    Originally posted by Atos Healthcare representative
    HiYa ATOS, if the 'norm' you have is a pre-set outcome based 'norm' then there is never a need for retrospective "reports are never written, or changed, in order to achieve an expected norm".

    The actual paper [not newspaper] by Kaliya Franklin of the Spartacus network is here

    The paper clearly states that the 'norms' you use are not based on any empirical evidence of how disability affects any persons ability or capacity to work and that the process of setting norms and managing to those norms further corrupts the assessment process and seems likely to have undermined its objectivity making that process unfair as evidenced by the appeals outcome[s] and is unreliable and taxpayer expensive.
    Disclaimer : Everything I write on this forum is my opinion. I try to be an even-handed poster and accept that you at times may not agree with these opinions or how I choose to express them, this is not my problem. The Disabled : If years cannot be added to their lives, at least life can be added to their years - Alf Morris - ℜ
  • lillie_put
    To Mr Atos
    please can you explain to me how somebody can all of a sudden not have a disability?
    Have you ever had to take your partner to the toilet wipe them?
    wash them?
    dress them?
    have you ever had do change their Sanitary products every month?
    have you any idea how Bl@@dy embarrassing it is?
    Have you had to sit and watch your partner loved one family member in Chronic pain
    AND YOU Can do nothing at all to help them
    Hear them crying in the night as the pain is intolerable
    help them doing physio seeing the pain on their faces an you no its something that has to be done
    and they are trying so hard but their bodies do not listen
    like a naughty toddler lol

    so how can seeing somebody for x amount of time let the representatives see all this
    will they be taking the person to the toilet? no
    will they be giving them there tablets?no
    will they change them clean them if don't get to toilet in time?no
    will they be there holding them hugging them when they are sobbing in pain ? no

    so how can you say how bad a person is or isn't?

    thank you
  • openblastvalve
    Hello, i am interested to find out, as being a redg dissabled person/high rate car etc.
    Due to high rate complaints/ leading to appeals due to, /?
    Possible, mis leading (fraudelnt) assessments forms sent back to dwp.
    How many appeals, complaints are realy about, true/honest assessments carried out by atos, on disabled people .leading to the asking of re decisions, then appeals, this taking months and months without benefit, also leading to having to comply with a new claim/jobseekers/looking for work,
    when doctors pro lawfull statements etc claim unfit for work
    is the real hidden agenda here, being published,, people made aware of, that the main concern here is , who is responsible for such peoples health care, insurance policys on there health via there doctors/gp;s pro statements etc
    who then is responsable in legal/law terms, who is right and who is wrong, if something should happen to a deteriation in there health, while undergoing the job seekers, looking for work, does this mean personal law suits,
    as to date , in complaints/appeals, this has cost the ik government over 4 billion and rising.
    Is there a forum/contact point, to reach other disabled people who know/realise that there ? Unchanged return assessment forms to the dwp are true and no fraudelent information has been added/changed.
    This would be a starting point for hundreds/thousands of mis led, confused, and predudiced disabled people , suffering in now poverty, and made to feel worthless, to made out to be a liar due to what has been written about them, and most important of all, them knowing, your doctors/nurses etc being accountable to the medical council/nurse/midwifery,
    having a care of duty to the public/patients.
    Are allowed to get away with possible such actions , effecting are once great pride in uk medical practice,

    so, come on, this would benefit the dwp, atos, and all uk people concerned,
    if this disgusting fraudelent behaviour exist.
    Then why not open up/let us know where one/all can post. In a public veiw/web site etc
    then it can, be addressed, at the real cause ofbthis abominal mess effecting most out there.

    I do know, and this is fact, there is actual evidence of fraudelent/changing of information in such assessments being carried out to date, has this happened in the past,
    is this the real/main reason of the , 4 billion spent and rising
    ongoing, and yet no body has been struck off/publicaly exposed. Serious, possible imprisonment, as this weight is centred on such acts

    therefore , in the interest in humane rights, the medical profession, can you, address this, a public web site available for disabled people to confidentialy contact one another. And see if this major/possible , unlawfull/possible discrrimination, any fraudelent actions, are out there and been tagged to such people/ hence, leading to ill health becoming worse, and adding costs to are nation.

    Is there anybody out there, if you cant supply such information, who having read this, could contact myself/others, to unite , in public decency.
    And help put a stop to this major scandal going on here.

    From a pasionate/very, very, very, pasionate disabled, victim, of this abominal scandal, who does have the proof needed to expose such going on;s, is there other people who have had this experience also, out there, and wants to get passionate about putting an end to, what i would call, a, un humane act to this injustice of uk citizens/disabled peoples /rights

    please do us all a favour mr atos.
    Value your company/dwp interests
    let us compare, what has realy happened to us, on this assessment form, we all have one.
    How about, a independant work assessment, via a ocupational health specialist, submitted to the dwp, and if major issues found here, the disabled person, re instated to benefit, the fee imposed for such a report. Repaid back to the disabled person.
    This system , of the assessment, fit for work, would have to be made honest then, and save the uk, billions of tax payers money and help are economy major.

    So, go on, supply us, open a link, for such information to be gathered amongst us, is this in your interest, to be seen, whiter than white, doing a professional job, with doctors/nurses, who hold the key, to disabled peoples lives/there ability to enjoy life and lead as normal life as they possibly can,
    but most important of all, hold there head up high, integrity, please dont rob us of that to,
  • cazz2013
    Dear ATOS representative, if in this thread you cannot answer any questions relating to the PIP procedures, then please can you start a thread that you (or someone from ATOS) can. There are many of us who would really appreciate some concrete answers instead of the same parrot phrases that we all get when we contact ATOS. One of the big ones being - why are we told by the health assessors to phone after 5 weeks to check the status of our claims - to be told after 5 weeks we are in an audit pile for quality control purposes that drags on for months - does ATOS know how to fill out and write these reports or not. I will be very interested in your reply.
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