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  • FIRST POST
    • Mark and Cath
    • By Mark and Cath 1st May 19, 9:52 AM
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    Mark and Cath
    Airlines blaming each other???
    • #1
    • 1st May 19, 9:52 AM
    Airlines blaming each other??? 1st May 19 at 9:52 AM
    Our daughter flew with Delta from Heathrow to Raleigh-Durham in the US. The flight changed at JFK and Delta contracted Virgin to fly her on the Heathrow to JFK leg. She paid Delta and not Virgin.

    Just before landing she discovered that Delta had cancelled the 2nd flight to Raleigh-Durham. She was told by Virgin cabin crew that she would be met at the gate and taken care of but this was sadly not true. On arrival she was told by Delta that there was nothing they could do that day as she was on the last flight, that she wasn't their problem anyway and that she should go away, sleep on her bags and come back in the morning.

    The problem here is that Delta are adamant that Suzi was still Virgin's problem because she hadn't bordered their flight yet. Virgin are saying that they were contracted by Delta to transport Suzi from Heathrow to JFK, they did so and their responsibility towards Suzi ended when she left their aircraft.


    Is one of these airlines being dishonest or is their a hole in the EU legislation and Suzi (and therefore every other passenger) has no 'right to care' while changing aircraft?


    Thanks all....
Page 1
    • Caz3121
    • By Caz3121 1st May 19, 10:01 AM
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    Caz3121
    • #2
    • 1st May 19, 10:01 AM
    • #2
    • 1st May 19, 10:01 AM
    If the Virgin flight had arrived late causing missing the Delta flight then Virgin would be responsible.
    The Emirates case sorted out delayed/cancelled 2nd flight but this does not appear to help when it is different airlines. Delta I assume will argue that as a non-EU airline you not covered unless the issue was on a flight departing the EU
    Did she book a hotel?
    • DrA_Harrogate
    • By DrA_Harrogate 1st May 19, 10:48 AM
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    DrA_Harrogate
    • #3
    • 1st May 19, 10:48 AM
    • #3
    • 1st May 19, 10:48 AM
    As Caz points out there is case law on the 'missed connection' situ, holding the airline responsible. It is also the case (I'm pretty sure), that it is the airline that flies you that is responsible for delays, rather than the ticket issuer.


    So the question is whether the purchase of a single ticket from an EU country renders a foreign airline responsible for subsequent connecting flights entirely outside the EU. I suspect the answer is yes looking at the Emirates case.


    It may be that another member of this learned community knows of a precedent, in which case they will chip in. You may also wish to check Botts or EU Claim free online flight checker to see if it covers this situ. If not they may well advise you on the phone.
    • JPears
    • By JPears 1st May 19, 10:49 AM
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    JPears
    • #4
    • 1st May 19, 10:49 AM
    • #4
    • 1st May 19, 10:49 AM
    I think I would be tempted to contact Botts, or try their online calculator.
    This is a grey area. The Gahan case helped, but its still a case of who to claim against?
    The crux of it may depend on if it is classed as a single ticket, which I suspect it is as Delta and Virgin codeshare.
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    • DrA_Harrogate
    • By DrA_Harrogate 1st May 19, 10:57 AM
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    DrA_Harrogate
    • #5
    • 1st May 19, 10:57 AM
    • #5
    • 1st May 19, 10:57 AM
    You can have a look at the Emirates/Gahan case here:



    http://www.4kbw.net/news/13102017183138-the-final-destination--the-court-of-appeal-s-decision-in-gahan-v-emirates/


    It says...



    ‘… where a carrier provides a passenger with more than one flight to enable him to arrive at his destination, the flights are taken together for the purpose of assessing whether there has been three hours or more delay.’
    • Caz3121
    • By Caz3121 1st May 19, 11:34 AM
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    Caz3121
    • #6
    • 1st May 19, 11:34 AM
    • #6
    • 1st May 19, 11:34 AM
    where a carrier provides a passenger with more than one flight to enable him to arrive at his destination, the flights are taken together for the purpose of assessing whether there has been three hours or more delay.
    Originally posted by DrA_Harrogate
    it will be interested when the scenario with different airlines gets tested in court....for example someone could travel on one ticket from UK to Australia LHR>AUH>MEL>BNE on Etihad then Virgin Australia...if the Etihad flights are all on time and the Virgin Australia flight is delayed.
    is there a claim and who from?
    Etihad didn't cause any delay
    Virgin Australia likely have no process in place for EU261 as they don't fly outside Asia-Pac
    • Mark and Cath
    • By Mark and Cath 1st May 19, 2:25 PM
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    Mark and Cath
    • #7
    • 1st May 19, 2:25 PM
    • #7
    • 1st May 19, 2:25 PM
    Well this is getting more and more interesting. Just to clarify the ticket was purchased form Delta and Virgin do indeed code share and operate that particular leg of the journey.


    I spoke to the passenger advice and complaints department at the CAA. There is now a legal precedent (Wegener vs Royal Air Maroc I understand), it rules that a single journey that commences in the EU is cover until the final destination and not just until the first change of aircraft outside the EU.

    Where this does get interesting is the the CAA are not themselves sure which airline is responsible for the passenger in the transition between aircraft and/or carriers.

    It has been suggested that referring both airlines to the ADR process will get a ruling and that will benefit both the passengers and the airlines by bringing clarity. I will keep you posted and thanks for the comments/advice.
    • Tyzap
    • By Tyzap 1st May 19, 3:36 PM
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    Tyzap
    • #8
    • 1st May 19, 3:36 PM
    • #8
    • 1st May 19, 3:36 PM
    Assuming that all flights were purchased via Delta on a single PNR (ticket), and not separate bookings.

    Virgin are right and Delta are wrong, for the following reasons.

    Virgin operated a code share flight on behalf of Delta, by inference, they did this without issue. They are, therefore, off the hook once they deliver the passenger to JFK without a qualifying delay. Virgin are just a 'red Herring' being used by Delta.

    Delta, as the operating airline, cancelled the next flight, the passenger was present and able to continue their journey but were denied by Delta's inability to operate the flight as scheduled. That puts them firmly on the hook, for compensation at the full rate (€600) and duty of care responsibilities i.e hotel, food, drinks etc.

    You (they) should send copies of receipts for any costs incurred to Delta along with a request for EU261 compensation.

    Claudia Wegener v Royal Air Maroc SA set good legal precedent, although the slight difference in this case is that Virgin operated the fist leg of the journey, not that that matters.

    Good luck.
    Last edited by Tyzap; 01-05-2019 at 3:39 PM.
    Please read Vaubans superb guide. To find it Google and then download 'vaubans guide'.
    • Mark and Cath
    • By Mark and Cath 19th May 19, 6:15 PM
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    Mark and Cath
    • #9
    • 19th May 19, 6:15 PM
    • #9
    • 19th May 19, 6:15 PM
    Just an update as promised.



    Delta now say they do not accept the precent set in the Wegener v Royal Air Maroc case and now claim that Susannah's EU rights ended when she left the EU.


    I can only believe that they know they are in the wrong and are simply trying to bluff it out/hope we go away.


    I will post back when the ADR process concludes....


    Thanks again.
    • Tyzap
    • By Tyzap 19th May 19, 7:58 PM
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    Tyzap
    Just an update as promised.



    Delta now say they do not accept the precent set in the Wegener v Royal Air Maroc case and now claim that Susannah's EU rights ended when she left the EU.


    I can only believe that they know they are in the wrong and are simply trying to bluff it out/hope we go away.


    I will post back when the ADR process concludes....


    Thanks again.
    Originally posted by Mark and Cath
    Thanks for the update.

    They are on the hook and they are wriggling!

    ADR should get to the bottom of this on your behalf.

    Good luck.
    Please read Vaubans superb guide. To find it Google and then download 'vaubans guide'.
    • Mark and Cath
    • By Mark and Cath 19th Sep 19, 4:43 AM
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    Mark and Cath
    Update, well here we are months later and getting absolutely nowhere.


    Virgin and Delta both blame each other - we know that. ADR initially closed the Virgin case and said they would refer the matter to Delta.


    Many weeks later I get an email saying it wasn't Delta and they had closed that case as well, they suggested and I should complain about Virgin instead. I informed them that I had already done so and they had closed the case themselves saying it wasn't Virgin

    I was then told there would be a case review. That was over a month ago and the only thing I know is that ADR don't communicate unless you keep chasing and they are seemingly unwilling or unable to engage in the more complex issues.

    Any thoughts on how I speed up this tedious process?
    • Tyzap
    • By Tyzap 19th Sep 19, 8:00 AM
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    Tyzap
    Update, well here we are months later and getting absolutely nowhere.


    Virgin and Delta both blame each other - we know that. ADR initially closed the Virgin case and said they would refer the matter to Delta.


    Many weeks later I get an email saying it wasn't Delta and they had closed that case as well, they suggested and I should complain about Virgin instead. I informed them that I had already done so and they had closed the case themselves saying it wasn't Virgin

    I was then told there would be a case review. That was over a month ago and the only thing I know is that ADR don't communicate unless you keep chasing and they are seemingly unwilling or unable to engage in the more complex issues.

    Any thoughts on how I speed up this tedious process?
    Originally posted by Mark and Cath
    The ball is in the ADR court, no matter how slowly they progress.

    It's their responsibility to get to the bottom of this, keep pushing them. A case review is unusual so I would bear with it for now.

    I would send them an email every 14 days to ensure it is kept under review.

    Good luck.
    Please read Vaubans superb guide. To find it Google and then download 'vaubans guide'.
    • JPears
    • By JPears 19th Sep 19, 8:40 AM
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    JPears
    In the meantime, I would be sending letter of complaint to the CAA, both about Delta's behaviour and the total incompetency of the ADR.
    CAA are trying to wash their hands of the whole flight delay issue, even though they are the legally appointed regulatory body.
    I would also be inclined, if you haven't already done so, to send Delta a final demand and marked as an NBA/LBA. Let the court decide.
    The legal precedents are quite clearly set and established now.
    I would be chasing up on a weekly basis, otherwise it will drag on and on......
    Last edited by JPears; 19-09-2019 at 8:42 AM.
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    • Alan Bowen
    • By Alan Bowen 19th Sep 19, 8:47 AM
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    Alan Bowen
    I think there is an EU court decision which favours a claim against Virgin as the EU carrier, even though they were not at fault. I have a copy of the press release of Mestky Soud -v- Praze which involved a single ticket from Prague to Bangkok via Abu Dhabi. The first flight on Czech Airways arrived on time in Abu Dhabi but the onward flight on Etihad was over 8 hours late. The Czech court sought a determination on whether there was a liability on Czech Airlines even though they were not at fault. The court held that they were liable to pay, presumably in the hope they could reclaim from Etihad. I think the determination was in July this year but should be easy to confirm
    • JPears
    • By JPears 19th Sep 19, 9:18 AM
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    JPears
    Hi Alan,
    I can't find any reference to this case.
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    • Alan Bowen
    • By Alan Bowen 19th Sep 19, 10:33 AM
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    Alan Bowen
    Decision made on July 11th 2019, the reference I gave appears to be the Czech case, the ECJ reference is Case C‑502/18, CS and Others v Česk! aerolinie a.s
    • JPears
    • By JPears 19th Sep 19, 11:47 AM
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    JPears
    So apart from Alan, we possibly stand corrected.
    Even though Virgin were not at fault, they conducted the initial leg of the journey.
    Clearly Delta's "excuse" is wrong.

    However, this case is different to the Czech case, as the booking and therefore the contract was with Delta in the first instance, not Virgin. Whether this has any bearing is unknown.
    Mark and Cath - suggest you send a copy of this judgement to the ADR.
    If you're new. read The FAQ and Vauban's Guide

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