BEVs deals and information

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  • 1961Nick
    1961Nick Posts: 2,045
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    GreatApe wrote: »
    Yep heating is a huge one far more than people realise

    During the cold months my heating uses the same energy as someone driving 150 miles per day

    To that end I wonder if it would be better to scrap the £3,500 per EV subsidy and make it a £3,500 heat pump subsidy. Likewise importing a £2k heat pump is much easier on the trade balance than importing a £40k Tesla
    I like the idea of quadrupling the subsidy ... but only for drivers that travel more than 30,000 miles pa ... where do I sign?:D
    4kWp (black/black) - Sofar Inverter - SSE(141°) - 30° pitch - North Lincs
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  • markin
    markin Posts: 3,808
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    Used market
    • Used market drops -2.1% in 2018, with 167,980 fewer cars changing hands compared with 2017.
    • Alternatively fuelled cars up 26.9% year-on-year as buyers opt for latest technology.
    • Superminis remain the most popular buy, with more than 2.7m finding new homes in 2018.

    IYqB5jl.png

    https://www.smmt.co.uk/2019/02/used-car-sales-q4-2018/

    Car Registrations
    H2jlDqc.jpg
  • Martyn1981
    Martyn1981 Posts: 14,713
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    Hiya Joe. I'm not sure how you can use the whole figure for the Tesla, shirley just the extra for the batt pack, since a car has to be built either way (nobody manufactures a second hand car, so you need a new car in the food chain, to free the s/h car line below it.)

    Also, as explained before, the ICE gets dirtier as it gets older due to wear and tear on the mechanicals making it less efficient, whereas the BEV only gets cleaner as the CO2 intensity of the grid keeps falling.

    But a really important issue here is where is the pollution? I don't want to argue that gas generation emissions are clean, but I assume they aren't too bad (I would of course never say that about coal). Plus the gas emissions are at controlled and centralised plants.

    The emissions from petrol and diesel ICEV's are 'shared' directly with us, and are a major part of the reason why city air quality is so poor.

    There's also the need if we are going to try to compare figures more fairly, of including all those other 'costs' I mentioned, exploration, extraction, transport and transport again. I think we can balance out the refinery against the RE powerstation, as sources of energy, but the fuel supply chain and related emissions also need to be added to the ICE given that a BEV, going forward will be supplied, at ever increasing levels, by leccy from a free fuel source.

    So the real comparison here will be additional energy/emissions from the batt production v's the lifetime supply and consumption of petrol/diesel.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
  • Martyn1981
    Martyn1981 Posts: 14,713
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    Regarding heating, heat pumps and heat pump subsidies, they already exist and are far more generous than the EV subsidy. An average house would probably be able to claim around £10k-£15k+.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
  • ABrass
    ABrass Posts: 1,001
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    Why recalculate pi (think reinvent the wheel) when it's been done before. There's loads of apples to apples comparisons for BEVs to ICE around. NI is a bit !!!! on those scales as it has such an unclean grid but I believe it does break even, let alone when you factor in second Life use of batteries.
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  • JKenH
    JKenH Posts: 4,743
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    markin wrote: »
    Used market
    • Used market drops -2.1% in 2018, with 167,980 fewer cars changing hands compared with 2017.
    • Alternatively fuelled cars up 26.9% year-on-year as buyers opt for latest technology.
    • Superminis remain the most popular buy, with more than 2.7m finding new homes in 2018.

    IYqB5jl.png

    https://www.smmt.co.uk/2019/02/used-car-sales-q4-2018/

    Car Registrations
    H2jlDqc.jpg

    I was most surprised by the rapid growth of MHEVs compared with the growth in EVs.

    I came across this 2015 paper on uptake of BEVs - dated but fascinating reading and much of what is in there applies today.

    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/464763/uptake-of-ulev-uk.pdf

    One quote from the document says

    Based on the available evidence there are likely to distinct segments of future EV purchasers in the UK, all sharing similar demographics, but characterised by either strong pro-environmental attitudes, the desire to save money on fuel costs or an active interest in new technology.


    As many of us here fit into one or more of the categories of potential purchasers, our perception of future take up of EVs may be skewed positively, and the general public may have a different perception which could slow down their roll out and sustain the purchase of ICEs albeit in MHEV form.
    Northern Lincolnshire. 7.8 kWp system, (4.2 kw west facing panels , 3.6 kw east facing), Solis inverters, Solar IBoost water heater, Mitsubishi SRK35ZS-S and SRK20ZS-S Wall Mounted Inverter Heat Pumps, ex Nissan Leaf owner)
  • joefizz
    joefizz Posts: 676
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    Martyn1981 wrote: »
    Hiya Joe. I'm not sure how you can use the whole figure for the Tesla, shirley just the extra for the batt pack, since a car has to be built either way (nobody manufactures a second hand car, so you need a new car in the food chain, to free the s/h car line below it.)


    Martyn,
    The point is about running cars older, not taking them off the roads with scrappage schemes or making them uneconomic to repair/disposing of them once they get to 6-7 years old.
    Again, there is evidence that 2nd hand cars are being artificially taken out of the market to promote new ones and a lot of the time its to promote 'greener' etc when its just keeping the car companies going.
    As Ive pointed out, you can run an older car for 10 more years with that CO2 over 10 years compared to the CO2 in producing just one car regardless of how fuel efficient it is.
  • joefizz
    joefizz Posts: 676
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    markin wrote: »
    • Alternatively fuelled cars up 26.9% year-on-year as buyers opt for latest technology


    Model 3s getting delivered in the UK. Will be interesting to see if that continues past the initial surge.
  • Martyn1981
    Martyn1981 Posts: 14,713
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    joefizz wrote: »
    Martyn,
    The point is about running cars older, not taking them off the roads with scrappage schemes or making them uneconomic to repair/disposing of them once they get to 6-7 years old.
    Again, there is evidence that 2nd hand cars are being artificially taken out of the market to promote new ones and a lot of the time its to promote 'greener' etc when its just keeping the car companies going.
    As Ive pointed out, you can run an older car for 10 more years with that CO2 over 10 years compared to the CO2 in producing just one car regardless of how fuel efficient it is.

    Hi Joe, I get your point, but is this really happening? If the car is un-economic to repair then doesn't that just mean it's un-economic. Now that might be due to emissions regs, but I'm hardly going to argue against that.

    Plus you are on the edge of a major BEV win, and that's that the cars can be designed to last much, much longer. With battery and powertrains good for 500,000 miles and production now possibly approaching twice that, BEV's can be the vehicle that last far longer.

    But (mass production) ICEV's have never been built to last that long since the mechanicals will become too costly to maintain, and thus they are removed due to being un-economic.

    Please understand I accept the premise of running an existing car longer, though I'm not convinced it's cleaner, however I'm not fully buying into the early retirement of the existing fleet, in which case it's not a sh ICE v's a new BEV, but a new BEV v's a new ICE, and that game is over, already.

    I appreciate some may not like this part, but again, I think a focus purely on CO2 is blinkered, we also have to consider the gross energy consumption of an ICE (what comes out the ground (plus all the energy getting, processing and transporting it)), probably giving us an efficiency of 10%? And the highly polluting emissions at street level, v's 'cleaner' and controlled emissions at a gas powerstation ...... slowly transforming into RE powerstations over time.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
  • joefizz
    joefizz Posts: 676
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    edited 5 October 2019 at 8:38AM
    Martyn1981 wrote: »
    Hi Joe, I get your point, but is this really happening? If the car is un-economic to repair then doesn't that just mean it's un-economic. Now that might be due to emissions regs, but I'm hardly going to argue against that.
    Yes, scrappage schemes... mot failures that require parts that cost more than hiring a car on pcp ;-)
    Loads of other stuff about returned vehicles not showing up on tax and mot etc etc.
    Oh, yeah, its all being done, problem is to what extent.

    As I keep emphasising its the increase in CO2 front loaded with new builds thats the problem, you can tax people off the roads or make it expensive to use more mileage but if its all front loaded with new builds then theres the problem, not the long burn car emissions. Until thats sorted, including end of life recycling (which we were doing in manufacturing datacomms equipment 20 years ago, but car industry isnt regulated like that)


    Martyn1981 wrote: »

    Plus you are on the edge of a major BEV win, and that's that the cars can be designed to last much, much longer. With battery and powertrains good for 500,000 miles and production now possibly approaching twice that, BEV's can be the vehicle that last far longer.

    But (mass production) ICEV's have never been built to last that long since the mechanicals will become too costly to maintain, and thus they are removed due to being un-economic.

    Please understand I accept the premise of running an existing car longer, though I'm not convinced it's cleaner, however I'm not fully buying into the early retirement of the existing fleet, in which case it's not a sh ICE v's a new BEV, but a new BEV v's a new ICE, and that game is over, already.

    I appreciate some may not like this part, but again, I think a focus purely on CO2 is blinkered, we also have to consider the gross energy consumption of an ICE (what comes out the ground (plus all the energy getting, processing and transporting it)), probably giving us an efficiency of 10%? And the highly polluting emissions at street level, v's 'cleaner' and controlled emissions at a gas powerstation ...... slowly transforming into RE powerstations over time.


    I agree. I worked on a 1980 ford fiesta when I was 17 and kept it running but new cars which are light years ahead in longevity terms are being scrapped in a lot shorter up to a similar timeframe for various reasons. The EU is bringing in right to repair for appliances and parts up to 10 years so why not cars, or longer.


    Scrapping every car and introducing BEVs for everyone would be catastrophic in terms of emissions right here right now. Its a big planet and they all go somewhere. A slow long phased in approach but as Ive shown even with my modest mileage, solar array and house battery Id still need to take half the power from the grid.
    BEV design needs to be planned recyclable from the start which of course will kill off the car companies, they dont want to produce a car that runs for 10 or 20 years and then can be recycled easily into a new car because they will be long gone...
    ...unless you are company like Tesla with limited output and a phased approach, by the time you supply everyone who wants one it would be time to take the old ones back and remanufacture into new ones for the same owner... wouldnt that be the ideal?



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