IMPORTANT: Please make sure your posts do not contain any personally identifiable information (both your own and that of others). When uploading images, please take care that you have redacted all personal information including QR codes, number plates and reference numbers.
Court proceedings for auto repair visit
foofcat
Posts: 106 Forumite
Update: The lovely forum regulars helped me craft my defence statement, which can be found in a link on page four (post #69) if you'd like to see it.
Hello, I've read through the sticky and feel increasingly downhearted because I think I've done everything wrong so far. I've never posted on a forum before so please go easy on me - I'm happy to be corrected and edit this post as needed.
Essentially the help I need is I'm not sure which basis would be the most effective in mounting my defence.
Background:
Earlier this year, someone knocked my wing mirror clean off while I was in Sainsburys. I sucked it up and took it to a garage but that ended up being difficult as I had to keep bringing and taking it back several times only for a solution that didn't last.
One one such visit, the garage asked me to leave the car with them and told me they'd call me to pick it up when it was ready. I dropped it off, hung out with my mum all day, and picked it up in the evening. I now know that PCM photographed it parked directly outside the garage's entrance - the PPC in question has one time of incident on their "pay my pcn" website, but the time on the original NTK is about 30 minutes later. I picked it up around two hours later.
Several weeks later I received an NTK advising that I'd contravened their terms (date they posted it was three days after the alleged contravention). When I confronted the garage they showed me a binder full of similar such noticed received for their own vehicles and other customers and told me that if I didn't ignore it they would only get more insistent. This was my first mistake - I should have immediately researched it then but circumstances at the time left me feeling too depressed and tired to deal with it. Not an excuse I know!
However when I received a letter from their debt collection agents, I caved and contacted them in writing advising that I wasn't the driver and that it was at the garage all day on the day in question. They told me due to PoFA 2012 (Schedule 4) it was too late for me to report the driver and that I was liable as the registered keeper. I didn't know what to do with that so I left it.
I then received a letter from the solicitors stating that they intend to take it to court - again I ignored it (feeling very stupid as I type this). I have now received a County Court Business Centre claim form and I want to (finally) be proactive about this - I also don't have a choice now given what I've read on the sticky thread.
Court Claim Form:
I've filed an AOS online but didn't see this forum in time and ticked the "intend to contest the jurisdiction" box thinking I'd otherwise have to go to Northampton.
I've now done some more research (including going to the site and taking pictures). It looks like the entire road is owned by Network Rail and therefore may not be enforceable by PCN, or at the very least I think PoFA 2012 might not apply in my case?
I can provide all documentation and photographs if this helps but at the moment I'm overwhelmed and have some basic questions:
1. Should I correct the jurisdiction issue on the AOS - if so, is it even possible now that I've submitted it?
2. Should my defence be focused on the fact that I was unequivocally not even in possession of the car at the time of the contravention because it was with the mechanic (as is shown by their own photographs because it's parked right outside their entrance).
3. OR should I instead focus on the fact that the entire road is owned by Network Rail and bylaw 14 applies (according to the Network Rail sign). I'm worried that it will undermine me in pointing out I wasn't driving.
4. Is there any point in me writing to Gladstones directly to see if I can get them to drop it on the basis of bylaw 14? I genuinely wasn't driving at the time and this is all very stressful.
5. If I'm correct in the above point 3, I'm considering counterclaiming a breach of DPA but I'm not clear on whether this is a separate process or if I can include it in the defence process. I don't like the idea of them holding my personal information based on a contravention that wasn't valid and that I wasn't even aware of.
There is a lot of information available on these threads but I've got a case of information overload. If someone could at least nudge me in the right direction, I'd be extremely grateful. Thank you and sorry if this is too much information!
Hello, I've read through the sticky and feel increasingly downhearted because I think I've done everything wrong so far. I've never posted on a forum before so please go easy on me - I'm happy to be corrected and edit this post as needed.
Essentially the help I need is I'm not sure which basis would be the most effective in mounting my defence.
Background:
Earlier this year, someone knocked my wing mirror clean off while I was in Sainsburys. I sucked it up and took it to a garage but that ended up being difficult as I had to keep bringing and taking it back several times only for a solution that didn't last.
One one such visit, the garage asked me to leave the car with them and told me they'd call me to pick it up when it was ready. I dropped it off, hung out with my mum all day, and picked it up in the evening. I now know that PCM photographed it parked directly outside the garage's entrance - the PPC in question has one time of incident on their "pay my pcn" website, but the time on the original NTK is about 30 minutes later. I picked it up around two hours later.
Several weeks later I received an NTK advising that I'd contravened their terms (date they posted it was three days after the alleged contravention). When I confronted the garage they showed me a binder full of similar such noticed received for their own vehicles and other customers and told me that if I didn't ignore it they would only get more insistent. This was my first mistake - I should have immediately researched it then but circumstances at the time left me feeling too depressed and tired to deal with it. Not an excuse I know!
However when I received a letter from their debt collection agents, I caved and contacted them in writing advising that I wasn't the driver and that it was at the garage all day on the day in question. They told me due to PoFA 2012 (Schedule 4) it was too late for me to report the driver and that I was liable as the registered keeper. I didn't know what to do with that so I left it.
I then received a letter from the solicitors stating that they intend to take it to court - again I ignored it (feeling very stupid as I type this). I have now received a County Court Business Centre claim form and I want to (finally) be proactive about this - I also don't have a choice now given what I've read on the sticky thread.
Court Claim Form:
I've filed an AOS online but didn't see this forum in time and ticked the "intend to contest the jurisdiction" box thinking I'd otherwise have to go to Northampton.
I've now done some more research (including going to the site and taking pictures). It looks like the entire road is owned by Network Rail and therefore may not be enforceable by PCN, or at the very least I think PoFA 2012 might not apply in my case?
I can provide all documentation and photographs if this helps but at the moment I'm overwhelmed and have some basic questions:
1. Should I correct the jurisdiction issue on the AOS - if so, is it even possible now that I've submitted it?
2. Should my defence be focused on the fact that I was unequivocally not even in possession of the car at the time of the contravention because it was with the mechanic (as is shown by their own photographs because it's parked right outside their entrance).
3. OR should I instead focus on the fact that the entire road is owned by Network Rail and bylaw 14 applies (according to the Network Rail sign). I'm worried that it will undermine me in pointing out I wasn't driving.
4. Is there any point in me writing to Gladstones directly to see if I can get them to drop it on the basis of bylaw 14? I genuinely wasn't driving at the time and this is all very stressful.
5. If I'm correct in the above point 3, I'm considering counterclaiming a breach of DPA but I'm not clear on whether this is a separate process or if I can include it in the defence process. I don't like the idea of them holding my personal information based on a contravention that wasn't valid and that I wasn't even aware of.
There is a lot of information available on these threads but I've got a case of information overload. If someone could at least nudge me in the right direction, I'd be extremely grateful. Thank you and sorry if this is too much information!
0
Comments
-
A blatant lie. According to PoFA, You can name the driver and discharge your liability anytime up to the point court proceedings are started.They told me due to PoFA 2012 (Schedule 4) it was too late for me to report the driver and that I was liable as the registered keeper.
Ring the court, see what they say. Hopefully it won't be a problem but, WCS they might charge a fee.Should I correct the jurisdiction issue on the AOS - if so, is it even possible now that I've submitted it
Very much so.Should my defence be focused on the fact that I was unequivocally not even in possession of the car at the time of the contravention because it was with the mechanic (as is shown by their own photographs because it's parked right outside his entrance).!
This too. Others here know more than me about railway bylaws so see what they say.!OR should I instead focus on the fact that the entire road is owned by Network Rail and bylaw 14 applies!
Pretty sure that's illegal. Threaten to report him to the trading standards and then do it if needed.he also refused to give me a receipt!
You can add him as a defendant to this case by paying the relevant court fee. That should spur him into action. That receipt could be very useful evidence.
Best focus on your defence which Gladstone's will see. If the want to drop the case then (unlikely) they can.!Is there any point in me writing to Gladstones directly to see if I can get them to drop it!I'm considering counterclaiming a breach of DPA but I'm not clear on whether this is a separate process or if I can include it in the defence process.
Go for it! Given that you've named the driver and they've lied to you and continue to pursue you, if say you have a strong claim for misuse of personal data.
Not sure if you initiate your counterclaim at AOS or defence stage so you may have missed it. But you can always issue a separate DPA claim after this one is concluded. You have ,6 years.0 -
The main focus of your defence needs to be the fact you discharged your liability under PoFA 2012 therefore cannot be held liable as RK
I really hope you've still got the email you sent them, and their reply0 -
Lamilad I could kiss you! Going to read again carefully, with a notepad to hand, and if I need clarification I'll reply (sorry!)... but I just wanted to reply and thank you first for taking the time.
Edited to add: yes I've got my email to them, and their reply to me citing PoFa - I don't know if it makes a difference that it was their debt recovery agents that told the fib but I imagine if they're acting on the PPC's behalf I can still use it?0 -
Two questions:
1. When I'm writing the defence, I'm planning to do it as a PDF per the guidance in the stickies and email it to the court. Is it okay for me to include photographs and screenshots of said emails in the body of the defence? I've now read through a lot of examples and none of them seem to include images so I'm guessing the answer is no - but it would certainly make it easier to draft the thing clearly.
2. I've just looked up Schedule 4 of PoFA 2012 and it just says that they can only pursue me if 28 days has elapsed since the NTK was issued but nothing requiring them to stop chasing me as long as I transfer liability before a Letter Before Claim is issued. Can you advise which bit of PoFA I should be looking at to prove that the Debt Collectors were wrong that I couldn't transfer liability even though court proceedings hadn't started? I calculated my email to them as being approximately 83 days after the date of the alleged offence.
Thank you!0 -
Also I've just called the mechanic and I'm meeting him tonight so he can give me a receipt or a letter. He was more helpful than I expected but I'm still quite nervous. He asked me to bring the letters I have, which I think I'll do (but definitely keeping them in my possession). He said he wanted to see them so he could help me.
Take copies of the letters only with you.0 -
Thanks KeithP - I was just about to leave. I don't have access to a printer or copier right now, so I will just show him photos of the letters on my phone instead. Wish me luck....0
-
No. The defence is just the words denying or admitting anything in the particulars of claim.Is it okay for me to include photographs and screenshots of said emails in the body of the defence? I've now read through a lot of examples and none of them seem to include images so I'm guessing the answer is no - but it would certainly make it easier to draft the thing clearly
Your evidence comes later, with your WS.I've just looked up Schedule 4 of PoFA 2012 and it just says that they can only pursue me if 28 days has elapsed since the NTK was issued but nothing requiring them to stop chasing me as long as I transfer liability before a Letter Before Claim is issued. Can you advise which bit of PoFA I should be looking at to prove that the Debt Collectors were wrong that I couldn't transfer liability even though court proceedings hadn't started? I calculated my email to them as being approximately 83 days after the date of the alleged offence.
Conditions that must be met for purposes of paragraph 4
5 (1)The first condition is that the creditor—
(a) has the right to enforce against the driver of the vehicle the requirement to pay the unpaid parking charges; but
(b) is unable to take steps to enforce that requirement against the driver because the creditor does not know both the name of the driver and a current address for service for the driver.
(2) Sub-paragraph (1)(b) ceases to apply if (at any time after the end of the period of 28 days beginning with the day on which the notice to keeper is given) the creditor begins proceedings to recover the unpaid parking charges from the keeper.
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2012/9/schedule/4/enacted
So, para 5(1)b had already ceased to apply well before court proceedings were started, because it is not a fact that the creditor was 'unable' to take steps and 'did not know' the name and address of the driver - they already had that information open to them via their tracing agent who (wrongly) refused that data, and misled you about the statute.
But you can prove you had already discharged any liability as keeper, before proceedings were begun, so they are pursuing the wrong party.
HTHPRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
CLICK at the top of this/any page where it says:
Forum Home»Motoring»Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD0 -
Coupon-mad, you're an angel! Thank you so much. I've read over it a few times and I think I understand. They were basically very selective about which parts of PoFA they were citing... and didn't bother to mention section 5 voided the conditions they had to fulfil to pursue me as the keeper.
My next steps:
1. Finish drafting my defence (which currently just consists of the PoFA issue and some stuff about Byelaw 14)
2. Call the court on Monday to explain I made an error when I put in the AOS that I was going to contest the jurisdiction and see if they'll fix it.
Some questions if anyone has the time / good will to answer them:
1. What laws/acts should I cite when arguing that as a third party contractor they didn't have the authority to pursue me due to Bylaw 14? I'm guessing I need to focus on PoFA's description of "relevant land"?
2. Will my defence require reference to other cases? I'm seeing a lot of references in others to ParkingEye vs Beavis but I can't see how it would help me. But also don't want to miss a trick.
3. Is it too weak if my defence is only based on those two things (that I discharged liability in accordance with PofA and bylaw 14)? All the other examples seem to have a million other things in their defence too. (Like signs being poorly lit or not mentioning additional fees if they have to chase you)
4. Assuming that Network Rail as the registered landowner can only pursue the driver if it's been 6 months or less since contravention, is it counted as normal calendar months or is it counted in working days?
5. Do I need to explain why I didn't respond to their letters before the one from the debt collectors arrived?
6. Is there any risk that the solicitors or their agents might be searching for their name on forums like this and could use it as evidence against a defendant? That sounds paranoid I know but all of this is a first for me.
No obligation to reply but if anyone has further advice I'd appreciate it.
Going to have a very late dinner now and try to relax... Thanks everyone
0 -
Does PCM say they put a yellow sticker on the car ( which the garage must have removed ) ?I now know that PCM photographed it parked directly outside the garage's entrance between 4.30 and 5pm.
Definitely worth talking to Trading Standards.
By leaving the vehicle in a place where the owner is liable to receive a parking charge, they are exposing the Registered Keeper to risk of loss.
I went to collect a car from a repair garage once ; to find it parked outside, on a public road, with the engine running.0 -
Geoff1963 - oh god... that's asking for trouble - I'm amazed it didn't get nicked!
I don't recall anything from PCM mentioning a yellow sticker at all and I asked the garage about it and they of course said there was no such sticker.
I'm still trying to look for the original NTK but will update this once I've found it to see if it mentions having left a sticker. As I understand it, that would mean I need to adjust the wording of my defence because different time limits apply. I'm more fussed about that than the garage end of things - it seems like a small business and despite what a pain in the backside the whole thing been, I don't want to cause them any trouble if I can avoid it.0
This discussion has been closed.
Categories
- All Categories
- 343.1K Banking & Borrowing
- 250.1K Reduce Debt & Boost Income
- 449.6K Spending & Discounts
- 235.1K Work, Benefits & Business
- 607.8K Mortgages, Homes & Bills
- 173K Life & Family
- 247.8K Travel & Transport
- 1.5M Hobbies & Leisure
- 15.9K Discuss & Feedback
- 15.1K Coronavirus Support Boards