Plasterer asked for money for materials up front for small job tomorrow

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  • Doozergirl
    Doozergirl Posts: 33,775
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    edited 19 February 2019 at 6:46PM
    EachPenny wrote: »
    Not when they are already attached to the first customer's wall.

    The issue with the OP's intended plasterer is almost certainly one of wanting to avoid non-payment rather than cashflow problems.

    For a small job being carried out for a stranger there is really no excuse these days for expecting 28 day payment terms. It isn't unreasonable for the tradesman to ask for some money on arrival at the site, with the remainder being paid on completion.

    I agree. Something is reasonable.

    A very good friend of ours gave up being a plasterer because he couldn't get paid by so many people. He did the little jobbing jobs to fit around acting instead of taking on or subcontracting on larger jobs. The more people you work for, the higher the risk of not being paid.

    We work on as few projects as possible because I want to minimise the risk of not being paid. We also run our own 'gut feeling' filtering process.

    When we first started offering our services we got fleeced by, or had to fully threaten with court, no less than the first four customers. It's because we didn't value ourselves and thought that we should work for people just because they want us to work for them. Learned that lesson the hard way!

    We have had one troublesome customer since we started making it clear that the choice to take on the project was a mutual one. And that problem was more an incompetent architect - so we don't work under architects as PM anymore either :o

    It's unreasonable to say that no decent trade will ask for money up front, but many don't. Some genuine people ask for money up front, some shady people do too. It's about proper due diligence.

    We have to pay for stuff upfront too sometimes! Any major organisation is going to take virtually all, if not all your payment up front.

    If someone wants 40% up front then they should be explaining that it is because they have a lot of people that don't pay. They should be producing a proper invoice with their full details on it as well, stating it's for work to be carried out on x date. That's reasonable.
    Everything that is supposed to be in heaven is already here on earth.
  • snowcat75
    snowcat75 Posts: 2,283
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    Dean000000 wrote: »
    That’s very noble of you, but those are not terms that I, or many others would trade on.

    You realise companies like bam get monthly valuations, and would have been paid once or twice since you started? Perhaps even a third before you get paid.

    Your nobility has enabled a multi billion pound company to get you to bankroll their business.

    Justsayin


    But I'm afraid that is the way of the world, Bam is one example but I know of very few small business or even one myself included that would pay a supplier upfront or would pay immediately on completion 28 days is the norm but could easily be double...… Fact is most small builders generally work completely different to 90% of other business.... If I asked for materials upfront Id be laughed at. Only paper that changes hands on the start of the job is the risk assessment and the Hot works permits.
    Doozergirl wrote: »
    Yours is an example of big business using you to manage their cashflow! Carillion, anyone?

    As a school governor, I see exactly what BAM get paid and when. The school isn't afforded the same terms that BAM afford themselves. There is no reasonable answer to being unable to pay bills promptly. That isn't managing cashflow.

    Its not right but that is the way of corporate business, You also need to be ahead of your game on your paperwork and site safety. However the jobs can be extremely lucrative if you play game.....


    However paying money to trades upfront no way, Its as much of a sin as not holding a retention on larger jobs ...…
  • bertiewhite
    bertiewhite Posts: 1,904
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    p00hsticks wrote: »
    A rather different scenario, as they have some form of security in the shape of the customers car until the bill gets paid.

    Fair point
  • ceredigion wrote: »
    Go into Tesco's and ask if you can pay for the groceries when you have eaten them


    You are comparing a product market to a service market.

    When I am in Tescos I know exacltly the quality of the item I am buying because I can see it on the shelf.

    When I am employing a trader I dont know how well the job has been done untl they have finished. I will therefore only pay when the work has been completed to an appropriate standard.

    Furthermore I have no intention of being somebodies advance loan facility for them to swan off and finish other jobs first.
  • Doozergirl
    Doozergirl Posts: 33,775
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    snowcat75 wrote: »

    Its not right but that is the way of corporate business, You also need to be ahead of your game on your paperwork and site safety. However the jobs can be extremely lucrative if you play game…

    Yes, I've heard the money available on HS2. A big game, to sweeten the 90 days for subcontractors with tax payer's money and a plc in the middle creaming it off and still not managing their business correctly.

    Ironically perhaps, my best client made their money in PFI and pays stage payments on 7 day terms.
    Everything that is supposed to be in heaven is already here on earth.
  • When I am employing a trader I dont know how well the job has been done untl they have finished. I will therefore only pay when the work has been completed to an appropriate standard.

    That's exactly how I look at it.
    Of the people saying that up front payments are acceptable, I wonder how many of they would object to paying for a haircut or dental work beforehand.
  • EachPenny
    EachPenny Posts: 12,239
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    That's exactly how I look at it.
    Of the people saying that up front payments are acceptable, I wonder how many of they would object to paying for a haircut or dental work beforehand.
    I don't know if it is the norm, but my dentist takes payments up front for checkups and minor work.

    At the end of the day the client can choose whether they are happy to pay (some) of the cost of a job before the work starts.

    Those clients who refuse point blank to pay a tradesman who asks for a reasonable advance payment are potentially cutting themselves off from employing some of the best tradesmen.

    You pay your money (or not) and take your choice.
    "In the future, everyone will be rich for 15 minutes"
  • Doozergirl
    Doozergirl Posts: 33,775
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    EachPenny wrote: »
    I don't know if it is the norm, but my dentist takes payments up front for checkups and minor work.

    At the end of the day the client can choose whether they are happy to pay (some) of the cost of a job before the work starts.

    Those clients who refuse point blank to pay a tradesman who asks for a reasonable advance payment are potentially cutting themselves off from employing some of the best tradesmen.

    You pay your money (or not) and take your choice.

    Mic Drop :D
    Everything that is supposed to be in heaven is already here on earth.
  • snowcat75
    snowcat75 Posts: 2,283
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    edited 19 February 2019 at 10:50PM
    Doozergirl wrote: »
    Yes, I've heard the money available on HS2. A big game, to sweeten the 90 days for subcontractors with tax payer's money and a plc in the middle creaming it off and still not managing their business correctly.

    Ironically perhaps, my best client made their money in PFI and pays stage payments on 7 day terms.

    HS2?????? or cross rail?, I was involved in some of the Crossrail work... But not as much as they wanted me to be.


    We were never official contractors but were called in on emergency works, So it put us in a slightly better position as we could get invoices paid on company credit cards, We quickly learnt that payments needed dealing with through site mangers never send to head office or finance departments and although we were supplying a service Id invoice a goods sale as this allowed site mangers to be able to pay us direct. Its all a game but generally you soon learn 4 figures is peanuts on these jobs and an invoice never goes out under to compensate for the huge amount of time that any person going on site will lose, with site inductions, HWPS, awaiting chaperones.... the list is endless


    Working for government run organisations even through a main contractor is a different world...…
  • snowcat75
    snowcat75 Posts: 2,283
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    EachPenny wrote: »
    I don't know if it is the norm, but my dentist takes payments up front for checkups and minor work.

    At the end of the day the client can choose whether they are happy to pay (some) of the cost of a job before the work starts.

    Those clients who refuse point blank to pay a tradesman who asks for a reasonable advance payment are potentially cutting themselves off from employing some of the best tradesmen.

    You pay your money (or not) and take your choice.

    Likewise though a payment upfront may mean a no show or a start date 8 weeks from what they said, or a juggle of half a dozen jobs... Trouble is building trade hasn't the best reputation on so many levels its time it really did start getting its act together....
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