Being charged for an engaged tone on Plusnet

jamie1973 · 18 April 2018 at 2:22PM

I know I’m not the only person to have this problem searching the forum and wider net, but I can’t get a definitive answer nor a link to Plusnet’s T&C’s from Plusnet themsleves.

Recently I have received a bill that is around £10 higher than normal and it appears that this is due to being charged for calling an engaged number (Doctor surgery on a Monday morning!) multiple times..

We have had included calls for years, but when we decided to change to Plusnet we thought we didn’t use the home phone enough to warrant a call plan and so opted for NO included calls.

1. Plusnet “Sales” told me they do not charge for an engaged call (I accept if a recorded message plays that its chargeable)

2. Plusnet “customer services” told me over various live chats:

a. A connected call included and engaged tone; but they cannot point me to a link in their T&C that states this

b. Every provider does this; see item 3 below

c. We pay a service charge and a one minute minimum call duration even for engaged tones; again they can’t point me to this in their T&C

I have tried various links they have sent and followed their instructions, but cannot see anything about this, I can only find reference to a chargeable call but nowhere is this defined. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to expect not be charged when the receiver is engaged?! .. otherwise it’s an “intend to use” charge.

3. BT and EE confirmed via live chat that they would not charge in this scenario (as has been my experience in the past); GiffGaff the mobile provide say they would charge as the call has “connected” but it was engaged.

4. I have spoken to GP surgery and they have confirmed that their phone system DOES NOT answer a call and quickly play an engaged tone when it realises it is busy; as some people suggest in this forum.

I am confused and furious. If this was made clear at the outset of the contract I would have either stuck with EE or at least added a price plan for included calls.

If they could point this out in their T&C’s I would accept it as a life lesson (even if it’s not made clear at inception of contract) and move on, but they cannot even do this and their sales and customer service department cant agree?!

Perhaps MSE could pick up on this as it seems very sharp practise to charge to not make a call!

Help!

jamie1973 · 18 April 2018 at 3:09PM

added this so i can switch auto notice on ..sorry guys!

iniltous · 18 April 2018 at 5:01PM

You are not charged for calls that get busy tone from the exchange , in other words if the exchange detects the number you have called is busy and the exchange returns busy tone, you don't get charged, but if the phone system of the person called can answer the call , then apply a tone or more usually a message, ( for example, you call, the is call answered , but a message says 'sorry very busy call back later' and hangs up on you , the exchange actually connected that call, so it's legitimately a charged call....

What's the duration of these calls on your phone bill (presumably a second or two, after all you wouldn't listen to busy tone for long), but genuine chargeable calls tend to be in 2 parts , call connection, then pence per minute , so even 1 second calls can be 20-30p in total, if your bill shows lots of these it suggests the exchange considers the calls were answered, even if the call only lasted a second.

If whoever you called says their phone system doesn't do this applying busy tone to calls they answer but cannot deal with, then it could be an 'exchange' fault , but certainly isn't a way of Plusnet raising revenue , and the Plusnet people are correct in saying they don't charge for these 'busy' line call attempts, only answered calls, but if there is an exchange fault, they wouldn't necessarily be aware of it, and TBH , it's unlikely to be an exchange fault anyway.

TBH , some doctors surgerys were using premium rate numbers a while ago and were instructed to stop the practise, is your surgery a 'local' number ?, perhaps they are still supplementing their income from this sort of thing.

You could set up (if you have it ) a charge advice call , make a call to your own number (providing you don't have a 1571 call answer type service or call waiting,) and if the 'exchange' rings back and says 'that call cost ** pence' you know there is a problem, if it doesn't, then it's probably the surgery phone system

jamie1973 · 18 April 2018 at 9:20PM

Hi,

Thanks for your reply:
1. The GP surgery is a standard 01 number and they tell me their system does not answer a call, realise its busy and then play a dial tone
2. PlusNet customer services team leader tells me "... any phone call made will incur a connection charge even if you get through to an engaged tone. I completely appreciate and have fed back, that the terms and conditions online could be a little bit more specific...". They also tell me that this is standard industry practise!

teddysmum · 19 April 2018 at 10:24PM

I do recall that, when UK mobiles first became available , calls to one of these was chargeable from a call box, even if there was an engaged tone. The phones in question were the shoebox size originals (husband still has his)

Lorian · 19 April 2018 at 10:28PM

If this is plusnet home phone maybe this is the 21p call setup charge?

https://www.plus.net/help/legal/residential-phone-tariffs/

iniltous · 19 April 2018 at 10:51PM

jamie1973 wrote: »

Hi,

Thanks for your reply:
1. The GP surgery is a standard 01 number and they tell me their system does not answer a call, realise its busy and then play a dial tone
2. PlusNet customer services team leader tells me "... any phone call made will incur a connection charge even if you get through to an engaged tone. I completely appreciate and have fed back, that the terms and conditions online could be a little bit more specific...". They also tell me that this is standard industry practise!

You don't really 'get through' to an engaged tone, that's not the way the phone system works, when you dial a number, the status of the line called is checked by the phone system processor and takes milliseconds , and if the called line is 'busy' , the the call isn't set up, but your 'line' is instructed to give you a 'busy tone' from your exchange equipment, not the called line equipment, so a call path is never set up, that's the reason why you are not charged for a call attempt that returned busy tone, because the call is not even set up let alone connected...
busy line calls don't even show up on your bill, only successfully connected calls, if a phone company tried charging for 'busy line' call attempts , Ofcom would be all over it as it's not allowed.

Ian011 · 20 April 2018 at 11:25PM

Why are you on a call plan where you pay for individual calls? How much are you currently paying per month for all of your calls to numbers starting 01, 02, 03, 071-075 and 077-079?

The usual way to pay for calls to those numbers is to pay around £8 per month for unlmited anytime calls. The issue of additional charges for those calls then never arises.

brewerdave · 21 April 2018 at 10:35AM

Ian011 wrote: »

Why are you on a call plan where you pay for individual calls? How much are you currently paying per month for all of your calls to numbers starting 01, 02, 03, 071-075 and 077-079?

The usual way to pay for calls to those numbers is to pay around £8 per month for unlmited anytime calls. The issue of additional charges for those calls then never arises.

If you look at the third paragraph of the original post, you will see that he had decided that he didn't make enuf calls to need a call package:)
His question is specifically about being charged for a non connected call ie engaged tone . I'm with PN and it doesn't happen to me ,which suggests an exchange issue ( or the Drs. phone system!!)

Owain_Moneysaver · 21 April 2018 at 1:42PM

I suspect the doctors' phone system and I also suspect the people at the surgery probably have no knowledge of their system as it's probably provided on a contract. These days it's probably a hosted VoIP system and their hosting company might well be false-answering calls in order to get the call termination revenue.

However, it's Plusnet who are making these charges so Plusnet whom you have to raise it with in the first instance through their formal complaints procedure and then to Ofcom if necessary.

Another option is to phone the surgery from a VoIP or mobile phone (or even a BT coinbox, although that's 60p minimum charge). That won't rely on an engaged tone to tell you the line is engaged - the phone status will tell you 'engaged' or 'connected'. If it's 'connected' and you hear engaged tone you'll know the tone is being generated by the surgery's phone system (whether they know it or not).

kwikbreaks · 22 April 2018 at 8:11PM

It's often the case with my doctor that you get through to their internal exchange but then wait on their system for the call to be dealt with. I doubt there was any charge for a BT exchange generated engaged tone it was the connect to and wait time on the doctors internal system which was [correctly] charged.

This was already explained in post#7 in a slightly different way.

Being charged for an engaged tone on Plusnet

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