New Build party wall noise issue
Comments
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Hi there, I’m an Acoustic Consultant, just came across this thread randomly and thought I’d chip in….
It’s possible that they’ve used the wrong wall ties in the cavity, there are mortar droppings in the cavity, or there are no flanking strips, all of these could provide paths for noise to transmit through. Also the possibility that light switches and/or plug sockets have been installed back to back, they’re effectively a hole in the wall with a very thin bit of plastic on the front, which can have a remarkable impact on the walls sound reduction.It feels like we are living next door to a 24/7 playground. People across the road in the same house types, do not have any noise issues which we are experiencing, surely this shows there is something wrong with the party wall?
Doesn’t show it has been built to standards at all. In-fact most a lot of party wall types don’t even contain insulation. The things I referenced above, particularly the wall ties, are far more important.Barratt Homes came in and drilled a small hole behind the plug socket on the party wall and stuck a camera inside to show there is insulation. Apparently this confirms the party wall has been built to standards by looking in a 5cm area of the wall.
Unfortunately this is correct, that is the only place they have to test, there is no compliance test into hallways, storerooms, stairs, or toilets (which aren’t an en-suite). So they could cut corners in these areas… Obviously not helpful though!NHBC conducted a sound test however they weren’t able to perform a sound test in the living room or anywhere else in the house apart from the kitchen because apparently you’ve meant to have ‘habitable’ rooms on either side. Our living room is adjoining onto their toilet and storage room which is classed as inhabitable. They conducted the sound test in our kitchen because they have their living room opposite. We were fuming over this because this has been going on for a year and have access to the house plans to see how they are laid out, instead rather waste our time agreeing this will be resolved. Of course the sound test passed because we cannot hear them in our kitchen, only place in the house that is acceptable with noise tolerance.
Unfortunately as per above they have satisfied their obligations in terms of the Building Regulations, so I’m not sure what else you can bring to Barrat Homes and NHBC. The downfall unfortunately is in the quality of the Building Regs and the lack of standards between other rooms that aren’t ‘habitable spaces’. Even then, the regs between habitable spaces aren’t the best either in the first place. Plus when it comes to testing, they have to do a minimum of 1 ‘set’ of testing (2 walls and 2 floors) for every 10 houses of the same type. So a lot of mistakes in the construction can be missed.Is there anyone out there who has any experiencing of these new build issues to advise us what we could do towards Barratt Homes or any ideas on sound proofing but can’t take up too much room because the rooms are already small. Barratt Homes and NHBC are not willing to help any further because the kitchen sound test has closed the case, when this has nothing to do with the areas we are being affected by.
In terms of a sound proofing solution, you’d be looking at putting a wall lining in. Currently I expect the block wall is plastered or dry lined (plasterboard stuck straight onto the block). To get an improvement, there needs to be an air void between the block and plasterboard. So for example, a 50mm wide metal stud at 600mm intervals, with a layer of 15mm plasterboard on that, possibly some insulation in that 50mm air void too. Search ‘GypLiner’ for examples. Obviously this would take some of your floor space…
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Cheers
Chris0 -
I'm thanking you, for your very detailed answer... but be careful not to cross this website's strict policy on business promotion.
Please try to stick around... noise problems commonly appear here!0 -
ChrisParkerJones wrote: »Hi there, I’m an Acoustic Consultant, just came across this thread randomly and thought I’d chip in….
It’s possible that they’ve used the wrong wall ties in the cavity, there are mortar droppings in the cavity, or there are no flanking strips, all of these could provide paths for noise to transmit through. Also the possibility that light switches and/or plug sockets have been installed back to back, they’re effectively a hole in the wall with a very thin bit of plastic on the front, which can have a remarkable impact on the walls sound reduction.
Doesn’t show it has been built to standards at all. In-fact most a lot of party wall types don’t even contain insulation. The things I referenced above, particularly the wall ties, are far more important.
Unfortunately this is correct, that is the only place they have to test, there is no compliance test into hallways, storerooms, stairs, or toilets (which aren’t an en-suite). So they could cut corners in these areas… Obviously not helpful though!
Unfortunately as per above they have satisfied their obligations in terms of the Building Regulations, so I’m not sure what else you can bring to Barrat Homes and NHBC. The downfall unfortunately is in the quality of the Building Regs and the lack of standards between other rooms that aren’t ‘habitable spaces’. Even then, the regs between habitable spaces aren’t the best either in the first place. Plus when it comes to testing, they have to do a minimum of 1 ‘set’ of testing (2 walls and 2 floors) for every 10 houses of the same type. So a lot of mistakes in the construction can be missed.
In terms of a sound proofing solution, you’d be looking at putting a wall lining in. Currently I expect the block wall is plastered or dry lined (plasterboard stuck straight onto the block). To get an improvement, there needs to be an air void between the block and plasterboard. So for example, a 50mm wide metal stud at 600mm intervals, with a layer of 15mm plasterboard on that, possibly some insulation in that 50mm air void too. Search ‘GypLiner’ for examples. Obviously this would take some of your floor space…
Feel free to get in touch if you need a bit of free advice (you'll have to google ParkerJones Acoustics as I can't post a link).
Cheers
Chris
Cavity in party wall?0 -
That's absolute rubbish, they don't self certify. Specifically in terms of noise, the builder either has to follow accredited details (which are registered and inspected on site), or undertake pre-completion testing following review of construction details and inspections during construction. Building Regulations allows this testing to be in selected plots, and then only between adjoining habitable rooms - that's the Govt deciding that, not the builders cutting corners.
If there are too many problems with the end result, then the Bldg Regs themselves need to be improved and tightened up. It's very rare that builders don't achieve Bldg Regs, but the real question is whether current Bldg Regs are fit for purpose - I don't think they are.
The OPs house layout doesn't appear to have any habitable rooms adjacent to their neighbour's habitable rooms. So the build complies with Bldg Regs even though there is significant noise transfer. That's a problem with how the Bldg Regs are written - it should be the same noise reduction targets anywhere along a party wall, regardless of whether it's a habitable room or not. But on the basis of the information provided by the OP, they won't win any legal case against the builder.
It has actually been acknowledged that the major building companies do employ their own people to do the building reg and other required compliance checks. That is self-certification by any other name, and certainly helps to explain why so many new build properties have major shortcomings. Reports of no wall between properties in the roofspace, missing insulation etc are commonplace.
Not problems to the same extent as detailed by the OP, but my nephew has been in a new build for under a year, and they had at least 4 lots of remedial work done. The latest was when water was dripping into the kitchen whenever they used the shower. On inspection the comment was along the lines that the wrong type of cement had been used to fix and grout the bath tiles and as a result they were coming loose! What form of quality control is there? Answer = Absolutely none.0 -
It has actually been acknowledged that the major building companies do employ their own people to do the building reg and other required compliance checks. That is self-certification by any other name, and certainly helps to explain why so many new build properties have major shortcomings. Reports of no wall between properties in the roofspace, missing insulation etc are commonplace.
Not problems to the same extent as detailed by the OP, but my nephew has been in a new build for under a year, and they had at least 4 lots of remedial work done. The latest was when water was dripping into the kitchen whenever they used the shower. On inspection the comment was along the lines that the wrong type of cement had been used to fix and grout the bath tiles and as a result they were coming loose! What form of quality control is there? Answer = Absolutely none.
No it hasn't, you're talking nonsense. I work with Barretts, Redrow, Taylor Wimpey and a lot of other large developers, and they all employ third party testers in terms of acoustic and air testing. Building Control inspections are also carried out by third party companies. It is certainly not self-certified. In all the tens of thousands of plots I've been involved with over 15 years or so, there has only been ONE property that had significant issues with missing insulation - that's certainly not commonplace, that's just poor Daily Mail reporting!
Grouting of bath tiles is not a building control issue. Those unimportant details (in respect of not being life safety measures) are handled by internal quality control, and yes this is generally poor.
The building control items are carefully checked BUT the Government has allowed the acoustic tests to be undertaken in a sample of house types, rather than all, and even then only between habitable rooms. That is the thing that needs changing, and it's for the Government to change.0 -
Cavity in party wall?
Yep, generally looks like this https://www.robustdetails.com/patterns/selecting-your-robust-details/masonry-walls/e-wm-23/#2722 with 75/100mm cavity fully filled with insulation.0 -
If you live in a semi detached house you are always going to get some noise from next door. No semi will ever be 100% soundproof.
If you don't want to hear the neighbours get a detached house and even then that is no guarantee of a neighbour noise free environment!0 -
Even if you improve the standard of sound insulation there will always be noise where you share walls with a nieghbour and you have become sensitised to noise from next door now. Could you sell and move to something with more robust noise handling? I do hope you find a resolution, I can imagine being driven to distraction by the noise, especially the use of the toilet kind of noise!0
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Wonder which way the floor joists run (if that type of floor), & the plumbing for the bathroom.0
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ChrisParkerJones wrote: »Hi there, I’m an Acoustic Consultant, just came across this thread randomly and thought I’d chip in….
It’s possible that they’ve used the wrong wall ties in the cavity, there are mortar droppings in the cavity, or there are no flanking strips, all of these could provide paths for noise to transmit through. Also the possibility that light switches and/or plug sockets have been installed back to back, they’re effectively a hole in the wall with a very thin bit of plastic on the front, which can have a remarkable impact on the walls sound reduction.
Doesn’t show it has been built to standards at all. In-fact most a lot of party wall types don’t even contain insulation. The things I referenced above, particularly the wall ties, are far more important.
Unfortunately this is correct, that is the only place they have to test, there is no compliance test into hallways, storerooms, stairs, or toilets (which aren’t an en-suite). So they could cut corners in these areas… Obviously not helpful though!
Unfortunately as per above they have satisfied their obligations in terms of the Building Regulations, so I’m not sure what else you can bring to Barrat Homes and NHBC. The downfall unfortunately is in the quality of the Building Regs and the lack of standards between other rooms that aren’t ‘habitable spaces’. Even then, the regs between habitable spaces aren’t the best either in the first place. Plus when it comes to testing, they have to do a minimum of 1 ‘set’ of testing (2 walls and 2 floors) for every 10 houses of the same type. So a lot of mistakes in the construction can be missed.
In terms of a sound proofing solution, you’d be looking at putting a wall lining in. Currently I expect the block wall is plastered or dry lined (plasterboard stuck straight onto the block). To get an improvement, there needs to be an air void between the block and plasterboard. So for example, a 50mm wide metal stud at 600mm intervals, with a layer of 15mm plasterboard on that, possibly some insulation in that 50mm air void too. Search ‘GypLiner’ for examples. Obviously this would take some of your floor space…
Feel free to get in touch if you need a bit of free advice (you'll have to google ParkerJones Acoustics as I can't post a link).
Cheers
Chris
I have been hearing exactly the same things in my recently purchased 2019 new build apartment made also my Barratt. We are hearing urination from above, sockets and light switches as loud as if they were in my room (bedroom and living room), moving coat hangers in the wardrobe of the property above as loud as if they were in my room, every movement of his bed when his partner is over, echoey footsteps throughout all non carpeted areas of the property above.
How did you resolve this in the end and did you find any defects? Would appreciate advice. Barratt's got an acoustician in and, of course, it passed the regulations. The locations and type of testing in no way mimicked what we hear, which is noise seeming to travel down the walls.
I look forward to hearing back
Zoe0
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