Electric cars

Martyn1981 · 10 April 2018 at 7:06AM

AdrianC wrote: »

Yes, they have.

PSA have been building electric cars since the 1980s, and had them in showrooms for Joe Public to buy, in the 90s. They currently have three different electric cars and an electric van in the range, and have committed to 40 electric models in the range by 2025, with every single model from all four brands available electrified.

Sorry, but nope, PSA are not supporters of EV's, they've done very little.

BTW, any chance you are going to provide the info about Tesla trucks I've asked for many times?

almillar · 10 April 2018 at 12:55PM

Sorry, but nope, PSA are not supporters of EV's, they've done very little.

Are you forgetting the Mitsubishi i-Miev, Citroen C-Zero and PEUGEOT iON, on the market in the UK since 2010, when most other manufacturers were sat back laughing?! You can't argue your opinion as fact.

AdrianC · 10 April 2018 at 1:05PM

...or the electric Berlingo/Partner, available as van or peoplecarrier?
Or the electric Berlingo and Saxo in the 90s?
Or the La Rochelle urban-car-pool projects using C15s, AXs, 205s, 106s back in the 80s?

PSA have been slow with hybridisation - but let's not forget that the hybrid4 versions of the DS 5, 3008, 508 were dropped, on the back of poor sales. Ultimately, hybrids have mostly been driven by the Japanese and, primarily, US markets - and PSA simply aren't there.

Martyn1981 · 10 April 2018 at 1:10PM

AdrianC wrote: »

...or the electric Berlingo/Partner, available as van or peoplecarrier?
Or the electric Berlingo and Saxo in the 90s?
Or the La Rochelle urban-car-pool projects using C15s, AXs, 205s, 106s back in the 80s?

PSA have been slow with hybridisation - but let's not forget that the hybrid4 versions of the DS 5, 3008, 508 were dropped, on the back of poor sales. Ultimately, hybrids have mostly been driven by the Japanese and, primarily, US markets - and PSA simply aren't there.

Hiya Adrian got any of that proof yet about your truck claims?

Martyn1981 · 10 April 2018 at 1:12PM

almillar wrote: »

Are you forgetting the Mitsubishi i-Miev, Citroen C-Zero and PEUGEOT iON, on the market in the UK since 2010, when most other manufacturers were sat back laughing?! You can't argue your opinion as fact.

Nope, not forgetting anything, just saying that PSA are not great supporters of EV's, unlike say Renault or Nissan.

"Mitsubishi i-Miev, Citroen C-Zero and PEUGEOT iON" - did you just name the same car 3 times?

There's a big difference between compliance cars to meet range efficiency mandates and supporting the EV market/future.

Edit - here's a timely article, not opinion, fact!

PSA Group (Peugeot-Citroën-DS-Opel) creates new EV division ahead of launching its first electric cars

The PSA group, which includes the French automotive brands Peugeot, Citroën, DS and now Opel, have fallen behind competitors in the transition to electric vehicles, but they have now created a new EV division ahead of launching their first next-gen electric car.

Peugeot owner PSA to launch electric car division

In a bid to catch up with other carmakers, many of which have comprehensive EV rollout plans already in place, PSA confirmed yesterday that the new division will start work in 2019 and aim to develop at least 40 electric vehicles by 2025.

GM sells Opel to PSA !!!8211; What does this mean for the European Bolt?

Manager also reported (via Automotive News) that GM may allow PSA to license its EV technology, which could work out nicely for all concerned. PSA has no plug-in vehicles of its own, although it does sell rebadged versions of the aging Mitsubishi i-MiEV as the Peugeot iOn and Citroen C-Zero.

Electric Peugeot 208 to lead PSA EV push from 2018

Thus far, PSA's most notable foray into electric cars was with the Citroën C-Zero and Peugeot iOn, rebadged versions of the Mitsubishi i-MiEV, in 2011.

PSA creates EV business unit

Alexandre Guignard is senior vice president of the BU, responsible for the profitable development of these operations, in all regions, and will head initiatives to help meet the group's CO2 targets, in compliance with the 2020 and subsequent European standards for CO2 emissions.

AdrianC · 10 April 2018 at 1:22PM

Martyn1981 wrote: »

There's a big difference between compliance cars to meet range efficiency mandates

Which don't exist in Europe.

Edit - here's a timely article, not opinion, fact!

PSA Group (Peugeot-Citroën-DS-Opel) creates new EV division ahead of launching its first electric cars

Fact. Apart from the very headline is simply wrong.

The quoted sentence immediately goes against the headline, with that "next-gen" (whatever that means) qualifier.

And, oh, look - the article's headed with a picture of an electric Berlingo - a car that's been in showrooms in van form since 2013/4, having been at motorshows since 2012. Follow the link to the 2016 Electrek article, and it mentions two "new platforms". The EMP1/CMP platform is about to enter production with the DS3 replacement and next Corsa, while the EMP2 platform has been in production since 2013.

Martyn1981 · 10 April 2018 at 1:31PM

AdrianC wrote: »

Which don't exist in Europe.

Fact. Apart from the very headline is simply wrong.

The quoted sentence immediately goes against the headline, with that "next-gen" (whatever that means) qualifier.

And, oh, look - the article's headed with a picture of an electric Berlingo - a car that's been in showrooms in van form since 2013/4, having been at motorshows since 2012. Follow the link to the 2016 Electrek article, and it mentions two "new platforms". The EMP1/CMP platform is about to enter production with the DS3 replacement and next Corsa, while the EMP2 platform has been in production since 2013.

Let me see, who should I believe, the press or you?

Brings me neatly back to asking yet again, can you please now provide the evidence on which you made all of those 'factual' Tesla truck claims please?

Martyn1981 · 10 April 2018 at 1:50PM

Interesting battle heating up in the states where Trump's decision to reduce the future fuel efficiency standards for cars (across the manufacturers range) will probably harm the sales of EV's, or at least slow down any increase in their take up IYSWIM.

EPA!!!8217;s war with California proves America needs a carbon tax

Last week, Trump!!!8217;s EPA announced that it will repeal the vehicle fuel efficiency standards set under the Obama administration and replace them with weaker requirements. EPA also threatened to revoke California!!!8217;s ability under the Clean Air Act to impose its own greenhouse gas standards. If they do so, California!!!8217;s attorney general will sue the EPA.

Probably worth mentioning that Trump appointed an anti-EPA man as head of the EPA, he's also put an anti-financial regulation bod in charge of their financial regulation. He seems to be appointing folk purely so that they can dismantle the work of Departments that he doesn't agree with, or could harm the profits of his friends.

almillar · 10 April 2018 at 2:29PM

Nope, not forgetting anything, just saying that PSA are not great supporters of EV's, unlike say Renault or Nissan.

So I told you about a car they've been selling, Adrian's told you about some more that they at least worked on (Yes, I'll have an electric AX please!), and all you can say is 'not great supporters'. What is your measurement of support?

"Mitsubishi i-Miev, Citroen C-Zero and PEUGEOT iON" - did you just name the same car 3 times?

Yes, it's an electric car (rebranded 3 times) that has been on sale since 2010 in the UK. I can count on one hand the number of other big car manufacturers that have been selling so many, for so long. I'm arguing with your assertion that they're not big supporters.
They seem to have annoyed you by complaining about the Chinese, but don't rewrite history!

'have fallen behind' does not equal 'not great supporters'. PSA is surely a company that will suffer a lot from the 'diesel dropoff' having invested so heavily in it. They have been on the back foot in many ways, but an inability to keep up, again, is not the same as 'not great supporters. They're behind Renault, Nissan, BMW, sure.

Can we agree they're 'behind some other manufacturers'?

Which don't exist in Europe.

Let me see, who should I believe, the press or you?

Compliance cars is a US term. I've got a Kia Soul EV, which is sold in SOME STATES as a compliance car - only where they need to do it.
See also, Fiat 500 electric. Haven't seen too many of those in Europe. Lots of electric cars are listed 'for sale' on shiny websites, but manufacturers don't really want to sell them, as they make a loss on them. Renault have praised themselves for actually getting into profit in EVs ahead of lots of other manufacturers.

Martyn1981 · 10 April 2018 at 4:00PM

almillar wrote: »

So I told you about a car they've been selling, Adrian's told you about some more that they at least worked on (Yes, I'll have an electric AX please!), and all you can say is 'not great supporters'. What is your measurement of support?

Yes, it's an electric car (rebranded 3 times) that has been on sale since 2010 in the UK. I can count on one hand the number of other big car manufacturers that have been selling so many, for so long. I'm arguing with your assertion that they're not big supporters.
They seem to have annoyed you by complaining about the Chinese, but don't rewrite history!

'have fallen behind' does not equal 'not great supporters'. PSA is surely a company that will suffer a lot from the 'diesel dropoff' having invested so heavily in it. They have been on the back foot in many ways, but an inability to keep up, again, is not the same as 'not great supporters. They're behind Renault, Nissan, BMW, sure.

Can we agree they're 'behind some other manufacturers'?

Compliance cars is a US term. I've got a Kia Soul EV, which is sold in SOME STATES as a compliance car - only where they need to do it.
See also, Fiat 500 electric. Haven't seen too many of those in Europe. Lots of electric cars are listed 'for sale' on shiny websites, but manufacturers don't really want to sell them, as they make a loss on them. Renault have praised themselves for actually getting into profit in EVs ahead of lots of other manufacturers.

Hiya. To save time arguing about whether PSA should be protected against the naughty Chinese, perhaps you could read the article I posted:-

Now that the other talking points have been mostly expended, PSA Group CEO Carlos Tavares has moved on to a last-ditch effort. He is arguing against the European Union's planned 2020 carbon dioxide auto industry fines (if compliance with fleet-level fuel-efficiency goals aren't met) by saying that such a course of action will "create a Chinese Trojan Horse."

and

The PSA Group exec stated at a recent auto industry event that policymakers hadn't realized that this "obvious" outcome would follow from the imposition of the European Union's 2020 carbon dioxide fines against auto manufacturers that don't meet a minimum fleet-level fuel efficiency.

and

Tavares went on to state that a major Europe-based auto manufacturer could be brought "to its knees" by such an approach, and as such it was dangerous.

I'll note here that these plans are nothing new, and that auto manufacturers have had a long time now to make changes so as to remain in compliance. They haven't done so for two main reasons: moving towards plug-in electric vehicles would lower their profit margins significantly; and the assumption of many was that fraudulent diesel car emission figures would partially help in meeting the goals.

So you may argue that PSA popping their badge on another companies EV means they should be protected from the Chinese because the naughty Chinese have spent their time developing EV's, but I'll have to disagree with you.

These companies should have gotten behind EV's sooner, not badged up a few cars, or produced dozens of concept cars, they should have invested in EV's. The same goes for the 3 big US old boys.

Edit - I believe my statement

This is a fun article. PSA, who haven't supported the EV idea, are now complaining that the sneaky Chinese (who have) might take market share by supplying cars that PSA doesn't build.

Perhaps PSA should stop complaining and build a load of EV's then?

conforms with the article. If you don't like what I said, then presumably you disagree with the article then?

Electric cars

Comments

Categories

Get our FREE Weekly email full of deals & guides - and it’s spam-free