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  • FIRST POST
    • dialdfordave
    • By dialdfordave 13th Oct 19, 7:24 PM
    • 61Posts
    • 14Thanks
    dialdfordave
    0 WOW
    Do I have to accept alternative flight?
    • #1
    • 13th Oct 19, 7:24 PM
    0 WOW
    Do I have to accept alternative flight? 13th Oct 19 at 7:24 PM
    Hi all

    I've spent some considerable time on Google but I have not found the answer to my specific question.

    I have a package holiday booked, which originally included a return flight with Thomas Cook.The agent has (without any prior contact with us) replaced the original Thomas Cook flight with an EasyJet flight (due to Thomas Cook going bust) which does not fit in with our other arrangements, as it leaves almost 4 hours later and creates significant inconvenience for us.

    My question is basically, do I have to accept this flight or do I have the right to a refund?

    Cheers
    Dave
Page 2
    • Westin
    • By Westin 13th Oct 19, 10:00 PM
    • 2,097 Posts
    • 1,539 Thanks
    Westin
    T&C's do not apply where a regulation or law is in force (otherwise we would all get shafted by every company).
    Originally posted by dialdfordave
    ...but ATOL does not regulate a change in your flight time.
    • duchy
    • By duchy 13th Oct 19, 10:01 PM
    • 18,414 Posts
    • 46,890 Thanks
    duchy
    Perhaps not but it would seem that the powers that be don't consider a 4 hour delay to be inconsequential. See https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/travel/flight-delays/ where it states you will be due compensation for a delay of 3 hours or more.
    Originally posted by dialdfordave
    EU261 compensation is entirely separate (and a flight changed weeks in advance is different to cancellations at the time of the flight) , the OP has a contract with the tour operator and that contract will say flights can change by up to 12 hours .
    I Would Rather Climb A Mountain Than Crawl Into A Hole

    MSE Florida wedding .....no problem
    • dialdfordave
    • By dialdfordave 13th Oct 19, 10:02 PM
    • 61 Posts
    • 14 Thanks
    dialdfordave
    ...but ATOL does not regulate a change in your flight time.
    Originally posted by Westin
    It bloody does when the original arrangement was broken due to the failure of the airline! This is exactly the kind of scenario that ATOL exists for!

    The only question is rather they had to give us the option of a refund.
    • dialdfordave
    • By dialdfordave 13th Oct 19, 10:03 PM
    • 61 Posts
    • 14 Thanks
    dialdfordave
    EU261 compensation is entirely separate (and a flight changed weeks in advance is different to cancellations at the time of the flight) , the OP has a contract with the tour operator and that contract will say flights can change by up to 12 hours .
    Originally posted by duchy
    The original T&C's are obviously broken as the airline is no longer trading.

    As I have repeated many many times, I'm sure ATOL rules take effect here, I'm just trying to drill down into what the tour operator is/was legally obliged to offer.

    It's pretty clear that nobody here can answer the question, so I will keep doing my own research until I find the answer.
    • photome
    • By photome 13th Oct 19, 10:06 PM
    • 14,311 Posts
    • 9,805 Thanks
    photome
    IMO your contract is still with love holidays and their t and c apply

    But it seems you know all the answers so not sure why you came on here asking
    • dialdfordave
    • By dialdfordave 13th Oct 19, 10:07 PM
    • 61 Posts
    • 14 Thanks
    dialdfordave
    IMO your contract is still with love holidays and their t and c apply

    But it seems you know all the answers so not sure why you came on here asking
    Originally posted by photome
    Well, it's simple. I know what I know but I don't know what I don't know.

    What I don't know for sure, is whether they were obliged by ATOL rules to give the option of a refund. That's all this is about. It's not about whether T&C's apply and how much of a delay is reasonable according to contract or any of that, it's just whether ATOL rules state that a refund must be offered.
    • IvanDP
    • By IvanDP 13th Oct 19, 10:33 PM
    • 145 Posts
    • 66 Thanks
    IvanDP
    Maybe I am wrong, but as I see you have a contract with the tour operator
    Their T&C state that the flight could be altered by up to 12 hours.
    Who operates the flight is irrelevant, you are still getting the flights, and your holiday.
    • dialdfordave
    • By dialdfordave 13th Oct 19, 10:33 PM
    • 61 Posts
    • 14 Thanks
    dialdfordave
    Well it does actually seem that ATOL might not apply in this case after all, but LoveHolidays has the responsibility to resolve the situation, according to the CAA.

    LoveHolidays own T&C's say this:

    "In relation to Package bookings only, in the unlikely event that we or your Service Providers have to make a significant change to your Package, we will tell you as soon as reasonably possible. You will then have the option to:

    accept the proposed change. If this results in a Package of lower quality or cost, you may be entitled to a price reduction in accordance with paragraph 13 below;

    reject the proposed change, terminate your Package and take an alternative one if we decide to offer this. If you decide to take an alternative Package, we will inform you of its impact on the price of your booking. If the alternative Package is of a lower quality or cost, you may be entitled to a price reduction in accordance with paragraph 13 below, or

    reject the proposed change and terminate your Package with a full refund."

    So I suppose it now comes down to quibbling about what is "significant", because they haven't defined it anywhere in their T&C's. Since EU261 compensation is paid for a 3 hour delay, I think it can be reasonably assumed that anything 3 hours or more is significant, with the absence of any detail in the T&C's.

    I will call LoveHolidays tomorrow and see what they say.
    • dialdfordave
    • By dialdfordave 13th Oct 19, 10:37 PM
    • 61 Posts
    • 14 Thanks
    dialdfordave
    Maybe I am wrong, but as I see you have a contract with the tour operator
    Their T&C state that the flight could be altered by up to 12 hours.
    Who operates the flight is irrelevant, you are still getting the flights, and your holiday.
    Originally posted by IvanDP
    There is nothing in LoveHolidays T&C's stating that a flight time can be altered by up to 12 hours. There may have been in Thomas Cook T&C's but they obviously don't apply now that the flight has changed to easyJet.

    It could perhaps be argued that who operates the flight is irrelevant but IMO it is not so with the timing of the flight. LoveHolidays booking process lets you choose between different flight times, airports etc and we actually chose the Thomas Cook flight due to it's timing. If the only option was the easyJet flight at the later time, we would not have booked the holiday at all.
    • IvanDP
    • By IvanDP 13th Oct 19, 10:59 PM
    • 145 Posts
    • 66 Thanks
    IvanDP
    I will try to simplify by summarising everything I know, as I believe some people might be confusing regulatory (ATOL) with T&C's. T&C's cannot override regulatory as far as I am aware.

    A package was booked via LoveHolidays which included a (one way) flight with Thomas Cook.

    Thomas Cook went bust

    LoveHolidays rebooked a flight with easyJet, on the same day but 4 hours later. They did not contact us about this to ask whether it would be suitable, or if we would prefer a refund, they just went ahead and did it.

    To the best of my knowledge, LoveHolidays will be bound by whatever the ATOL rules say, their T&C's cannot override regulation or law (otherwise we would all be abused by loads of unfair clauses in contracts),

    LoveHolidays have some less than clear information on their own web site. One part says:

    "We have now contacted all customers who are due to travel up to July 2020.*

    For those customers who have requested refunds, we are working to process these as quickly as possible".

    This would suggest they have contact all customers and offered refunds to at least some of them. However it then goes on to say:

    "We are in the process of emailing all our affected customers (who were not yet contacted), to advise them on their holiday options. You will shortly receive an email from us with three main options:

    Keep your current holiday and choose a new alternative flight (some options will be at no cost, some options will require an additional payment from you to secure these alternatives),

    transfer what youíve already paid for your current holiday onto a new holiday (plus a little bit extra on us!). Your current holiday will be immediately cancelled and replaced with your new holiday*

    cancel your current holiday and get a full refund**"

    This seems to suggest they have not yet contacted everybody, contrary to the previous statement, though it does again suggest that they are offering refunds to those affected. This is AFAIK in keeping with ATOL rules (which remember, their T&C's cannot overrule).

    So I guess there are two questions now.

    1. Why were we not offered a refund when their own web site says they will offer one?

    2. Do ATOL rules actually mean they have to offer a refund even when there is another suitable (in some peoples opinions, at least) flight available.
    Originally posted by dialdfordave
    Hi all

    I've spent some considerable time on Google but I have not found the answer to my specific question.

    I have a package holiday booked, which originally included a return flight with Thomas Cook.The agent has (without any prior contact with us) replaced the original Thomas Cook flight with an EasyJet flight (due to Thomas Cook going bust) which does not fit in with our other arrangements, as it leaves almost 4 hours later and creates significant inconvenience for us.

    My question is basically, do I have to accept this flight or do I have the right to a refund?

    Cheers
    Dave
    Originally posted by dialdfordave
    Some inconsistencies there
    I can't see how 4 hours is going to cause any major inconvenience, apart from having to sit around an airpot waiting for your flight.
    • Calpol4life
    • By Calpol4life 13th Oct 19, 11:05 PM
    • 82 Posts
    • 201 Thanks
    Calpol4life
    Some inconsistencies there
    I can't see how 4 hours is going to cause any major inconvenience, apart from having to sit around an airpot waiting for your flight.
    Originally posted by IvanDP
    Errr one way and return can still be the same thing .

    Though, for what its worth OP. No, this is not significant.

    Your best way forward (if you really want to cancel a refund) is to appeal to their better nature.

    Quoting ATOL, T+Cís and EU law at them is likely to get their (and anyoneís) back up....
    • bagand96
    • By bagand96 13th Oct 19, 11:21 PM
    • 3,088 Posts
    • 2,012 Thanks
    bagand96
    You seem to be picking and choosing what T&Cs and/or regulations apply to you and which donít to suit your opinion of what you want. ATOL doesnít apply because your contract is with loveholidays and they are still trading. EU261 is completely irrelevant because that is a regulation applying to airlines and loveholidays are not an airline.

    From the loveholidays T&Cís:

    In accordance with EU Regulations we are required to advise you of the operating carrier(s) (or, if the operating carrier(s) is not known, the likely carrier(s)) that will operate your flight(s) at the time of booking. Where we are only able to inform you of the likely carrier(s) at the time of booking, we will inform you of the identity of the operating carrier(s) as soon as we become aware of this. Any change to the operating carrier(s) after your booking has been confirmed will be notified to you as soon as possible. Any change in the identity of the airline, flight timings and/or aircraft type will not entitle you to cancel or change to other flight arrangements without paying charges, except where specified.
    I think that probably covers it.
    Last edited by bagand96; 13-10-2019 at 11:25 PM.
    • dialdfordave
    • By dialdfordave 13th Oct 19, 11:52 PM
    • 61 Posts
    • 14 Thanks
    dialdfordave
    I can't see how 4 hours is going to cause any major inconvenience, apart from having to sit around an airpot waiting for your flight.
    Originally posted by IvanDP
    I love how everybody thinks that a 4 hour delay is nothing more than a "minor inconvenience".

    There are plenty of repercussions, not least getting back to the UK at 23:30 (assuming no delays) and then still having to drive home when likely already tired (which is as bad as driving drunk, according to studies).

    We specifically chose an earlier flight with Thomas Cook even though it was more expensive, so that we could get home at a reasonable hour and without being exhausted, yet we ended up with the later easyJet flight anyway.
    Last edited by dialdfordave; 13-10-2019 at 11:53 PM. Reason: fixed a mistake
    • baza52
    • By baza52 14th Oct 19, 12:27 AM
    • 2,493 Posts
    • 2,718 Thanks
    baza52
    Im sure they would allow you to change the flights for earlier ones. You would of course have to pay the difference in cost
    • Socajam
    • By Socajam 14th Oct 19, 2:18 AM
    • 590 Posts
    • 827 Thanks
    Socajam
    My head is spinning from the OP's antagonistic attitude
    • mattyprice4004
    • By mattyprice4004 14th Oct 19, 3:07 AM
    • 4,249 Posts
    • 3,919 Thanks
    mattyprice4004
    Agree with the above, your attitude is shocking considering these replies are from people trying to help you out of their spare time.

    I recommend other posters donít bother and just let the thread drop to the bottom of the board - invest your time where itís valued. I certainly wonít be helping.
    • Westin
    • By Westin 14th Oct 19, 5:38 AM
    • 2,097 Posts
    • 1,539 Thanks
    Westin
    It bloody does when the original arrangement was broken due to the failure of the airline! This is exactly the kind of scenario that ATOL exists for!

    The only question is rather they had to give us the option of a refund.
    Originally posted by dialdfordave
    You are starting to look like a t1t now.

    Please google what ATOL is.
    • mattyprice4004
    • By mattyprice4004 14th Oct 19, 5:41 AM
    • 4,249 Posts
    • 3,919 Thanks
    mattyprice4004
    Now heís bleating on another thread about the responses heís received...

    As stated in the other thread, the small stick near the steering wheel of your car will resolve the darkness issue while driving, and driving after an evening flight is hardly a Herculean task.
    Iím about to drive 2 hours after landing at 1am from a 10 hour flight... suck it up buttercup
    • prowla
    • By prowla 14th Oct 19, 6:43 AM
    • 10,699 Posts
    • 9,660 Thanks
    prowla
    I'm with the OP - he's asked a question and received the 3rd degree by the opionionati.
    • Pollycat
    • By Pollycat 14th Oct 19, 7:50 AM
    • 23,879 Posts
    • 64,282 Thanks
    Pollycat
    I will call LoveHolidays tomorrow and see what they say.
    Originally posted by dialdfordave
    Good idea.
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