Bulk LPG - Cheapest suppliers / supply route?

fleurh · 13 June 2012 at 6:02PM

Thanks HateLPG for clarifying.

I should point out that the person I spoke to was trying to be helpful by giving an indication of what to look for in the contract, and not in any way suggesting this was what Avanti were doing. It would appear this is not the case with Avanti, I was just looking for someone to verify it who actually had an Avanti contract they could quote from to be sure.

Cheers and thanks again!

HateLPG wrote: »

This is not a trick at all. The price is fixed for 12 months. After that, your supplier (in this case Avanti) may increase the price at anytime should they so wish. They may choose not to do so, depending on a number of factors. They may also increase the price by more than the stated amount, in which case you would be free to terminate your contract should you so wish.

Note also, that (taking 5p per 6 months as an example) price increases may not necessarily occur all in one go. You may receive an increase of say 2ppl on Jan 1st (for simplicity) and another increase of 3ppl on April 1st. That means that within the terms of the contract, the next increases they can impose without giving you rights of termination would be just 2ppl on 1st July and 3ppl on 1st October. Remember, it's a maximum increase of 5ppl in any six-month period.

Hope that clarifies things.!

longforgotten · 14 June 2012 at 2:00PM

Fleurh, just read the recent posts after 'pm' to you.

Countrywide took on our tank back in 2009. The tank has been in the same spot for about twenty years. I think there may well be issues with its siting now there are new regs but Countrywide are still delivering and I'm happy with that. Also its copper piping from the tank to the house so thats wrong too I now understand.

How worried should I be that the piping is not plastic ?

Should I rock the boat and ask Countrywide to 'update' where necessary ?

At the mo I'm happy in my ignorance ......

mfmaybe · 14 June 2012 at 4:29PM

longforgotten wrote: »

Fleurh, just read the recent posts after 'pm' to you.

Countrywide took on our tank back in 2009. The tank has been in the same spot for about twenty years. I think there may well be issues with its siting now there are new regs but Countrywide are still delivering and I'm happy with that. Also its copper piping from the tank to the house so thats wrong too I now understand.

How worried should I be that the piping is not plastic ?

Should I rock the boat and ask Countrywide to 'update' where necessary ?

At the mo I'm happy in my ignorance ......

I'll be interested in the replies to this. Flogas (surprise!) told me they are literally only responsible for the tank, we are responsible for anything outside it, including the regulator, pipework etc. We've just had to pay someone to fit a new regulator as ours kept tripping out, leaving us with no heating or hot water. (This is likely to do with corrosion, as our underground tank "turret" keeps filling with water. We've now bought a pump, but despite the fact Flogas fitted the tank, they tell me this is also my issue to resolve). Regarding the regulator, I was told the same from both the engineers on site, and the office. I did ask exactly what the maintenance fee I was paying covered - the answer was less than clear.

LittleVermin · 14 June 2012 at 4:48PM

mfmaybe wrote: »

I'll be interested in the replies to this. F**gas (surprise!) told me they are literally only responsible for the tank, we are responsible for anything outside it, including the regulator, pipework etc. We've just had to pay someone to fit a new regulator as ours kept tripping out, leaving us with no heating or hot water. (This is likely to do with corrosion, as our underground tank "turret" keeps filling with water. We've now bought a pump, but despite the fact Flogas fitted the thank, they tell me this is also my issue to resolve). Regarding the regulator, I was told the same from both the engineers on site, and the office. I did ask exactly what the maintenance fee I was paying covered - the answer was less than clear.

Please send this to Sharon Dias at OFT - [EMAIL="sharon.dias@oft.gsi.gov.uk"]sharon.dias@oft.gsi.gov.uk[/EMAIL]
Maybe even with a copy to UKLPG H&S dept? Maybe with some images?

"Flogas fitted the tank" - surely they are responsible for rectifying what appear to be faults in doing this AND in faults arising from the faulty job?

We would all be very interested in the reply from Sharon Dias.

The OFT Remote Communities Report is out and this summary includes:

Examples of the actions we are taking and recent projects of particular
relevance to remote communities include:
• .....
• consumer protection enforcement work in the heating oil and LPG
sectors

..... so I think an email/letter to OFT is well justified!
..

HateLPG · 14 June 2012 at 5:06PM

mfmaybe wrote: »

I'll be interested in the replies to this. Flogas (surprise!) told me they are literally only responsible for the tank, we are responsible for anything outside it, including the regulator, pipework etc. We've just had to pay someone to fit a new regulator as ours kept tripping out, leaving us with no heating or hot water. (This is likely to do with corrosion, as our underground tank "turret" keeps filling with water. We've now bought a pump, but despite the fact Flogas fitted the thank, they tell me this is also my issue to resolve). Regarding the regulator, I was told the same from both the engineers on site, and the office. I did ask exactly what the maintenance fee I was paying covered - the answer was less than clear.

Well, WHAT a surprise! Are there NO depths to which Flogas will sink?

I can only speak from experience of other suppliers here:

1) We had a problem with our regulator a few years back, and the supplier (Calor) replaced it without question;

2) When we transferred to Avanti (Shell as was), the contract (for installation) was quite explicit - their responsibility was everything up to and including the gas-safety shut-off valve just before the supply entered the property.

I have just had a quick look at an old Flogas contract (2011) and it says:

9. LIMITATIONS OF LIABILITY (YOUR ATTENTION IS PARTICULARLY DRAWN TO THIS CLAUSE)
9.1 We shall have no liability:
9.1.1 for defects in the Tank and Fittings and/or Services to the extent the defect has been caused or contributed to by you this includes you failing to follow the Guidance Notes and/or our reasonable instructions;
9.1.2 unless you give us a reasonable opportunity to remedy any matter for which we are liable before you incur any costs and/or expenses in remedying the matter itself;
9.1.3 for the Pipes;
9.1.x....

In other words they are responsible unless (they can prove) "the defect has been caused or contributed to by you".

However, as Flogas installed the tank, the fact that the turret keeps filling up with water has to be down to a failure on their part to survey the site correctly or to design and engineer the installation correctly.

Personally, I would go back to Flogas and demand compensation from them (in no uncertain terms) for having to replace the regulator and for the cost of installing (and running) the pump, since the problems are as a direct result of their negligence. Since they are not just failing to maintain, but are refusing to maintain your tank, you probably also have grounds to demand a refund of all maintenance charges paid to date. They are unlikely to be terribly receptive, so be prepared to forward all details and correspondence to the OFT (and possibly also to Trading Standards and/or the H&SE) and make sure Flogas know that you will be doing that.

If Flogas prove to be utterly intransigent, you may have grounds to take things further to recover your losses, but you would need specific advice on that from an expert. You will also have to prove that you have made all reasonable efforts to resolve the matter prior to starting any legal proceedings if you want the best chance of a positive outcome from that route, so that is just a threat to keep in your back pocket for now.

LittleVermin · 14 June 2012 at 5:28PM

mfmaybe wrote: »

.............. Flogas fitted the thank ................

Here's a quote from Calor's on-line info about underground tanks - titled Underground Bulk Tank Installation (here):

Flooding

Tanks should not be sited in areas prone to flooding. Consult the local water Authority for information regarding the proposed site.
Consideration should be given to the provision of adequate drainage in areas of clay or water retaining soils.
Where there is a likelihood of the water table rising to a level equal to the bottom of the valve box located on the vessel then the tank shall be semi-mounded to ensure that the bottom of the valve box is a minimum of 100mm above the natural ground level.
This should ensure that the valve box containing the tank valves and fittings is not flooded and the regulating equipment controlling the supply pressure to the premise does not fail causing a cessation of the gas supply.

Might be worth mentioning this if you write to Sharon Dias, UKLPG, HSE, your MP, etc...and of course in claiming your costs (and rental?) back from Flogas if you follow HateLPG's advice in the previous post.

LittleVermin · 14 June 2012 at 6:05PM

mfmaybe wrote: »

I'll be interested in the replies to this. Flogas (surprise!) told me they are literally only responsible for the tank, we are responsible for anything outside it, including the regulator, pipework etc. We've just had to pay someone to fit a new regulator as ours kept tripping out, leaving us with no heating or hot water. (This is likely to do with corrosion, as our underground tank "turret" keeps filling with water. We've now bought a pump, but despite the fact Flogas fitted the tank, they tell me this is also my issue to resolve). Regarding the regulator, I was told the same from both the engineers on site, and the office. I did ask exactly what the maintenance fee I was paying covered - the answer was less than clear.

BP's T&Cs (here):

SCHEDULE OF STANDARD DOMESTIC TERMS AND CONDITIONS OF SUPPLY (RE-SIGN)
1. Definitions
In this Schedule of Standard Domestic Terms and Conditions of Supply the following words shall have the meanings set out below:

<snip>

"Equipment" means the tanks, pipework (excluding Service Pipework) and
ancillary items for the storage and use of LP Gas up to and including the emergency stop valve and which, subject to the terms of the Agreement, are owned by BP; ....“Service Pipework” means pipework beyond the first stage pressure reduction assembly together with the 2nd stage pressure reduction assembly, termination valve and meters (if applicable);

<snip>

4. Equipment maintenance
4.1 Subject to Clauses 4.2 and 4.3, any Equipment will remain the property of BP unless and until such time as the
Equipment is sold by BP to a third party LP Gas supplier by way of Tank Transfer.
4.2 BP shall maintain the Equipment but BP shall not maintain any equipment belonging to, or provided by, or which
becomes the property of, the Buyer.

Shell Gas info on underground tank installation is no longer available (Google cache has a bar on it) and Avanti Gas has no info as yet.
..

HateLPG · 14 June 2012 at 6:40PM

I have had a quick look through a few contracts (generally 2010 and 2011) that I have collected, and there is some inconsistency as to ownership of and liability for the pipework. In Flogas case, for example, they explicitly take no liability or ownership; Calor, however, state they may take on liability and ownership where the current supplier can provide all relevant certificates of conformance etc.

But I can't help feeling that, irrespective of whether or not you own the pipework between the tank and the emergency shut-off valve, the LPG supplier has a legal responsibility to provide a "system" to make available to you a safe, usable and regulated supply of gas from a bulk installation, i.e. their responsibility, as an absolute minimum must extend up to and including the regulator outlet.

Where portable (and removable) 47kg cylinders are used, I believe the consumer owns and has the responsibility to maintain the regulator. But this is an entirely different situation where the regulator is designed and intended to be safely switched between supply vessels on a regular basis, and the cylinder as an entity is considered a "safe and usable" supply.

On a bulk system, however, the regulator is an intrinsic and permanent requirement for the safe supply of gas.

Just my thoughts on the matter, for what they are worth.

mfmaybe · 14 June 2012 at 10:21PM

<bangs head repeatedly against wall>

Why oh why oh why is it all so complicated and confusing :mad:

As always, thanks for the fabulous advice on here. You'd think Flogas' mission statement was something like "to be the worst market provider of LPG, with incorrigible customer service, seeking all opportunities out that allow us to fleece our customers, and to get rich trying". If so, they are bang on.

Anyway we have to have a little think about our next steps. We currently have 70% in our tank. We will probably move house within 18 months, and have about 15 months left on a FloGas contract. It might not be worth rocking the boat - not least because, when I looked around my garden I was struggling to find a suitable siting for a replacement tank. So we might just have to bail out the water from our tank, use as little as possible, and sit tight

fleurh · 15 June 2012 at 7:41AM

Got a few updates for the forum on the tank siting issues problem (post# 1476).

Reminder of our tank issues:
a) safety cut-off valves corroded, no longer working
b) service pipe metal, building regs require plastic
c) position of tanks too close to property boundary, wooden fence, and over-hanging leylandii hedges - building regs require 3M clearance from flammable boundary

1) reply from Sharon at OFT:
Sharon identifies two avenues to pursue, which have also been pointed out by other posters to the forum.

.....However your existing supplier has advised that in order to upgrade your existing tank you will need to extend your contract (I presume for the usual maximum duration of an exclusivity period which is two years).

You could use the rights afforded to you by Article 13.1 of the Domestic Bulk Liquefied Petroleum Gas Market Investigation Order 2008, namely:

“When a tank is uplifted, the existing supplier shall not charge the customer or the new supplier any costs directly connected with the uplifting of the existing supplier’s tank.”

However, you would still need to pay for the installation of a new tank from the incoming supplier.

If the problem is with the condition of the tank rather than its location or what has been placed or grown around or near it, it would be worth your while examining your contract with Calor to see what obligations they have as regards maintaining the tank before considering switching to a new supplier.

The way I interpret this is that, although I might have a case with Calor wrt the non-functioning safety valves, there's no point in getting them just to repair these as the tank siting issue and connecting pipe are just as important, and it would appear that regardless of non-compliance the customer has to pay for cost and installation of a new tank - the supplier's only liability is to remove the old non-compliant one.

I've emailed Sharon to get clarification on whether 'maintenance' includes 'compliance with (revised) building regs' and will report back as soon as I've got a reply from her.

2) Calor response

Calor have finally responded after I contacted their Customer Services, very apologetic about not acting on my letter to them 2 months ago, and have proposed that in order to keep us as customers, we are treated as if we were 'new' - which translates into an offer to remove the old tanks, provide a new 1200 ltr tank re-sited according to building regs, and relay the pipework to the house.

We would have to provide the concrete pad if necessary, and sign up to a new 2 year contract, but Calor will cover everything else. Calor have confirmed they would look to match whatever deal I can get with other suppliers - we discussed 45ppl fixed for 6 months, which would be an improvement on the 56.4ppl I'm paying them at the moment, especially if I can also get them to introduce some sort of cap or break contract clause if they hike the price too far.

I'm waiting to hear back from Countrywide on what they offer, and Avanti are sending out a rep next week. I'm thinking I'd prefer to go with Countrywide if they can include a new tank in the deal, as they are still a small independent, though as has also been pointed out they are now aligned with Flogas, which may affect how they operate.

I'll post separately on my investigations on what suppliers are available in our area - it is not a good story sadly, we are not as well served as those of you lucky enough to live in the Midlands or Wales or the North West!

Bulk LPG - Cheapest suppliers / supply route?

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