UPDATED: Air Source Heat Pumps/Air Con - Full Info & Guide, is it cheaper to run than mains gas?

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  • zeupater
    zeupater Posts: 5,353
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    wrightk wrote: »
    thanks for this. it seems as if there will be a survey after xmas, then the work will proceed a week after dependent on whether we decide to proceed. I was told this morning that the system they use is 'atherma' and there is only a choice out of 3 systems and this is the one they use. they have told me it will be air to air, but then went on about having radiators in the living room, hall, bedrooms, a large ceiling one for kitchen etc so now im not sure? sorry i am a complete novice on this.
    Also told that bedrooms will be set to 18 degrees and living room 21 as standard but system can run up to 24 if needed
    i was told that there will also be a large hot water tank cited in a cupboard or worst case scenario the loft.
    i asked about reviews etc and was told when they started putting them in they had complaints about DHW not being hot enough but now have changed a valve or something to provide at least 60degrees DHW.

    Does any of this sound about right. i am completely off grid btw. no mains gas. just a 15kw multi fuel stove with DHW tank and immersion. Heat pump provides CH to 7 rads in winter. My energy usage last year was 6500kw (about £1k), this doesnt include the price of coal/kindling
    Hi

    £1k for 6500kWh suggests that you're using loads of electricity (17.8kWh/day) even though you have a burner with back boiler ... are you using electricity to provide heat too ?

    HTH
    Z
    "We are what we repeatedly do, excellence then is not an act, but a habit. " ...... Aristotle
    B)
  • matelodave
    matelodave Posts: 8,595
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    edited 7 December 2017 at 2:34PM
    I've got a Daikin Altherma - 11kw with a 200 litre hot water tank and it's been running for seven years.

    We have underfloor heating so it will run a bit cooler than rads but the secret with an air source heat pump is to run it for much longer at cooler temperatures. You are better off turning the main stat down a couple of degrees over night rather than shutting it off. A luke warm rad on most of the day is better than one that alternates between red hot and cold

    We are happy with our hot water tank temperature at 45 degrees with a boost to 60 once a week to kill off any legionella.


    To get the temp up to 60 a heat pump has to use an immersion heater which reduces it's efficiency, so the lower your hot water temp the cheaper it is to run. Most people have hot water from the hot tap and then run in a load of cold - we use ours straight from the hot tap. It's hot enough for a shower and to wash up stuff although we use a dish washer.

    We have a fairly large detached bungalow with average insulation and we are at home all day, so the heating is on most of the time. We are also all electric, cooking etc and my wife doesn't stint on the heating or use of the tumble dryer - even in the summer.

    This year we'll use a total of around 6300kwh of leccy at 12p/kwh = £756 and I've just changed supplier for another 12 month fix at around 11.9p/kwh plus 14p/day standing charge = about £800.

    Heatpumps are very sensitive to temperature changes so the cooler you can run them the cheaper they are.

    If you are an avid meter watcher you'll find that the consumption can look quite high if it's very cold outside but averaged out we are very pleased with ours but it's worth while learning how to use it to get maximum benefit
    Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large numbers
  • Boxergy_FW
    Boxergy_FW Posts: 2 Newbie
    edited 7 December 2017 at 8:07PM
    Hi all,
    we are a new energy startup.
    We want to convert UK home heating to be 100% renewable and help improve our environment.
    Would you help us by taking a short survey?
    Just 9 questions, less than 10 minutes to do.
    Unfortunately the forum doesn't allow us to ad a link.
    But you can find it on our website (boxergy.com)

    Thank you very much
  • wrightk
    wrightk Posts: 975 Forumite
    zeupater wrote: »
    Hi

    £1k for 6500kWh suggests that you're using loads of electricity (17.8kWh/day) even though you have a burner with back boiler ... are you using electricity to provide heat too ?

    HTH
    Z

    No, just a tumble dryer (even though its an a rated one) most weeks, 4 children and us :P
    Even a stopped clock tells the right time twice a day, and for once I'm inclined to believe Withnail is right. We are indeed drifting into the arena of the unwell.
  • zeupater
    zeupater Posts: 5,353
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    Boxergy_FW wrote: »
    Hi all,
    we are a new energy startup.
    We want to convert UK home heating to be 100% renewable and help improve our environment.
    Would you help us by taking a short survey?
    Just 9 questions, less than 10 minutes to do.
    Unfortunately the forum doesn't allow us to ad a link.
    But you can find it on our website (******.com)

    Thank you very much
    Hi

    .... by converting to 100% renewable heating I take it that you're talking about running your high efficiency (100% efficient?) electric heaters with 100% renewable sourced electricity ?? .... :wall:

    Problem there is that all resistance based electric heating (panel heaters, storage heaters etc) are pretty close to 100% efficient in converting electrons to heat, so unless the laws of physics have changed, any one form of standard resistance electric heating source can't be any more efficient than any other, they can only provide the same amount of heat over a longer time period (eg storage heaters) ....

    Now, many around here already operate their heating at 300% to 600% efficient already, but that's a different technology and therefore a different story ... so no thanks, I think I'll pass on the survey .... :cool:

    I think I'll put the appropriate sign up at this point ...
    :xmassign: .... no that's the wrong one ...
    :spam: .. that's better ...


    HTH
    Z
    "We are what we repeatedly do, excellence then is not an act, but a habit. " ...... Aristotle
    B)
  • matelodave
    matelodave Posts: 8,595
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    My thoughts as well - spam button pressed
    Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large numbers
  • zeupater
    zeupater Posts: 5,353
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    wrightk wrote: »
    No, just a tumble dryer (even though its an a rated one) most weeks, 4 children and us :P
    Hi

    Then at over double the average electricity use for a UK household that's a horrendously high use of electricity ... do you have an energy monitor, whole house or plug in? ... you really should look to trace down what's causing that level of consumption ... a smart-meter won't save you any money, all it will do is tell you what you're using, which a <£10 plug in monitor and/or ~£25 whole house monitor could be doing for you already ...

    If you're still on old incandescent lightbulbs think about a trip to 5crewfix (or similar) and buy a load of LED replacements, they're usually something like 5 for £10, with GU10 halogen replacements much cheaper - this alone would likely save a fortune, but whatever, using a tumble-dryer for a couple of loads a week isn't going to to explain well over 3000kWh of additional consumption ...

    HTH
    Z
    "We are what we repeatedly do, excellence then is not an act, but a habit. " ...... Aristotle
    B)
  • wrightk
    wrightk Posts: 975 Forumite
    We do have a smart meter,energy saving bulbs etc. The brunt of the cost is the immersion which is on a lot especially in the summer when there is no source of hot water other than this
    .
    Even a stopped clock tells the right time twice a day, and for once I'm inclined to believe Withnail is right. We are indeed drifting into the arena of the unwell.
  • matelodave
    matelodave Posts: 8,595
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    edited 8 December 2017 at 11:30AM
    A 180 litre tank will take approx 9kwh to heat from 15 to 60 degrees so perhaps you should consider trying to economise on it a bit or reduce you water temperature.

    Take shorter showers, have shallower baths and perhaps fewer of them. Dont let hot water run down the sink and don't rinse stuff (including your hands) in hot water.

    Every time you run off the cold from the hot tap you leave a similar amount of hot water sitting the pipes getting cold and wasting all the nergy that you've paid for heating it up.

    I reckon my heatpump uses about 2kwh of leccy to heat our tank

    I'd be very inclined to start reading your meter, at least weekly and recording it in a spreadsheet before you get your heatpump so you can monitor what effect it has on your consumption. Once you get some data you'll be able to judge what effect any tweaking you do has.

    You need to make sure that you are on the best leccy tariff that you can get - we find that we dont use enough overnight to be on an E7 tariff.

    If you want to see how our consumption varies have a look here https://www.energyhive.com/dashboard/dave although today will be pretty grim as it's still frosty outside (the heating kicked in at about 1:30 this morning) The washing machine went on just after 10 and will be flogging it's heart out together with the tumble dryer when the first load gets done.

    You can look at the daily, weekly and monthly histories to see how it varies throughout the year and you'll see that we probably use nearly 50% of our annual energy between December and February
    Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large numbers
  • zeupater wrote: »
    Hi

    .... by converting to 100% renewable heating I take it that you're talking about running your high efficiency (100% efficient?) electric heaters with 100% renewable sourced electricity ?? .... :wall:

    Problem there is that all resistance based electric heating (panel heaters, storage heaters etc) are pretty close to 100% efficient in converting electrons to heat, so unless the laws of physics have changed, any one form of standard resistance electric heating source can't be any more efficient than any other, they can only provide the same amount of heat over a longer time period (eg storage heaters) ....

    Now, many around here already operate their heating at 300% to 600% efficient already, but that's a different technology and therefore a different story ... so no thanks, I think I'll pass on the survey .... :cool:

    I think I'll put the appropriate sign up at this point ...
    :xmassign: .... no that's the wrong one ...
    :spam: .. that's better ...


    HTH
    Z


    Hi, you're right. In fact we will use ASHP as the title of the forum, but with a different and new technology that will improve the utilization of the asset.
    But for the moment what we need most is to understand from you ASHP users or prospective ones, wich are your main concerns and problems you have encountered.
    We are not selling anything yet and don't want to be spam. We just want to understand your opinions guys.
    As the need for the survey.

    Thanks
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