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  • FIRST POST
    • maddie67
    • By maddie67 11th Oct 18, 1:42 PM
    • 77Posts
    • 39Thanks
    maddie67
    Any advice would be appreciated...
    • #1
    • 11th Oct 18, 1:42 PM
    Any advice would be appreciated... 11th Oct 18 at 1:42 PM
    �� thanks everyone who replied, yes I’m a grown up and have taken your advice on board.

    I’ve deleted my original text as I really do love my job, and don’t wish to appear that I’m all about discrimination and pay divides as that’s not what this was about .
    Last edited by maddie67; 11-10-2018 at 7:51 PM.
Page 1
    • ReadingTim
    • By ReadingTim 11th Oct 18, 1:47 PM
    • 3,154 Posts
    • 4,698 Thanks
    ReadingTim
    • #2
    • 11th Oct 18, 1:47 PM
    • #2
    • 11th Oct 18, 1:47 PM
    Learning to use paragraphs would be my advice.
    • bugslet
    • By bugslet 11th Oct 18, 1:51 PM
    • 6,490 Posts
    • 30,727 Thanks
    bugslet
    • #3
    • 11th Oct 18, 1:51 PM
    • #3
    • 11th Oct 18, 1:51 PM
    It would be really helpful to have some paragraphs. It's really difficult to read in that way.

    Is this about you or some other person?

    Just some random points, what is in her/your contract about overtime? If it isn't in there that you have to do it, don't worry about it.

    Holidays, how the work gets done when you/her are not there, is not your/her problem, that's the point of management. Book the holidays in the usual way and let management deal with how the workload is dealt with.

    On the subject of workload, if you/she can't do it, which since it's more than one person's job, it can't be done, then again that is for management to deal with. I'm all for helping out when things go wrong, but it's a short term fix, a week or so, not lurching from one problem to another.

    You/her are basically being a doormat - sorry, but if you allow yourself to be walked over, then that is what they do.

    There is nothing to stop you joining a union.

    Woman up!
    • sangie595
    • By sangie595 11th Oct 18, 2:48 PM
    • 5,702 Posts
    • 9,946 Thanks
    sangie595
    • #4
    • 11th Oct 18, 2:48 PM
    • #4
    • 11th Oct 18, 2:48 PM
    I am assuming this is you?

    The senior lady is a doormat. The employer had done nothing wrong in law, and she has let all this happen.

    The employers problems - month ends, year ends, lots of work - are their problems. If she wants to never take leave or work lots of hours unpaid, then that's absolutely fine. If she doesn't she needs to start saying no to extra work, start saying no to extra hours, and tell her manager that she has three months to take four weeks leave so she'll be taking it on the following dates unless they'd like to discuss other dates (the employer can tell her when she must take it but not that she can't take it at all).

    You weren't really expecting a different answer, were you?
    • Comms69
    • By Comms69 11th Oct 18, 3:02 PM
    • 5,899 Posts
    • 6,187 Thanks
    Comms69
    • #5
    • 11th Oct 18, 3:02 PM
    • #5
    • 11th Oct 18, 3:02 PM
    I am assuming this is you?

    The senior lady is a doormat. The employer had done nothing wrong in law, and she has let all this happen.

    The employers problems - month ends, year ends, lots of work - are their problems. If she wants to never take leave or work lots of hours unpaid, then that's absolutely fine. If she doesn't she needs to start saying no to extra work, start saying no to extra hours, and tell her manager that she has three months to take four weeks leave so she'll be taking it on the following dates unless they'd like to discuss other dates (the employer can tell her when she must take it but not that she can't take it at all).

    You weren't really expecting a different answer, were you?
    Originally posted by sangie595


    I suspect the OP was hoping to hear how discriminated she was, how sexist this male dominated place is and that she should take them to court and win £100,000....
    • sangie595
    • By sangie595 11th Oct 18, 3:12 PM
    • 5,702 Posts
    • 9,946 Thanks
    sangie595
    • #6
    • 11th Oct 18, 3:12 PM
    • #6
    • 11th Oct 18, 3:12 PM
    I suspect the OP was hoping to hear how discriminated she was, how sexist this male dominated place is and that she should take them to court and win £100,000....
    Originally posted by Comms69
    To be fair, I didn't read it like that. I read it as the description of being "male-dominated" as being a suggested good reason for being a female doormat. A sort of "I'm not as strong or confident as men, I'm surrounded by them, and I don't know what to do to stand up for myself". It's easy for some women to see such excuses as explaining why they are doormat. Happens in lots of scenarios, not just employment. I have a friend whose husband is the very definition of loser, but she can't leave him because she couldn't manage financially or with the children if she was on her own - despite the fact that she pays more of the bills, manages everything in the house and the children already, and would be financially better off without him!

    I don't really understand it fully, because I have no doormat capacity, I never have had, and the only doormats around here are coir. But I see it very often.
    • Comms69
    • By Comms69 11th Oct 18, 3:17 PM
    • 5,899 Posts
    • 6,187 Thanks
    Comms69
    • #7
    • 11th Oct 18, 3:17 PM
    • #7
    • 11th Oct 18, 3:17 PM
    To be fair, I didn't read it like that. I read it as the description of being "male-dominated" as being a suggested good reason for being a female doormat. A sort of "I'm not as strong or confident as men, I'm surrounded by them, and I don't know what to do to stand up for myself". It's easy for some women to see such excuses as explaining why they are doormat. Happens in lots of scenarios, not just employment. I have a friend whose husband is the very definition of loser, but she can't leave him because she couldn't manage financially or with the children if she was on her own - despite the fact that she pays more of the bills, manages everything in the house and the children already, and would be financially better off without him!

    I don't really understand it fully, because I have no doormat capacity, I never have had, and the only doormats around here are coir. But I see it very often.
    Originally posted by sangie595
    Fair enough, it was just the reference to being paid as much as a man; so the company 'cost' her £100, which I thought punctuated it.
    • DontBringBertie
    • By DontBringBertie 11th Oct 18, 3:40 PM
    • 36 Posts
    • 30 Thanks
    DontBringBertie
    • #8
    • 11th Oct 18, 3:40 PM
    • #8
    • 11th Oct 18, 3:40 PM
    After reading the post the 'woman in a male dominated environment' bit actually has no relevance to the story.

    I worked with someone who, whenever someone disliked her or complained she hadn't actually done the work she was paid to do, claimed they were a misogynist.

    "What's the IT help desk number?"

    "What's the magic word?"

    "Urgh. Just another example of the patriarchy in motion"
    • ReadingTim
    • By ReadingTim 11th Oct 18, 3:57 PM
    • 3,154 Posts
    • 4,698 Thanks
    ReadingTim
    • #9
    • 11th Oct 18, 3:57 PM
    • #9
    • 11th Oct 18, 3:57 PM
    You're being "discriminated against" because you're a doormat, not because you're a women.

    Doormats can be of either sex, and a man in that situation who acted in the same way is likely to be on the receiving end of the same treatment.
    • Comms69
    • By Comms69 11th Oct 18, 3:57 PM
    • 5,899 Posts
    • 6,187 Thanks
    Comms69
    OMG those comments! I can understand you thinking that I was mentioning 'male dominated' because I was feeling discriminated against etc, but that wasnt it, that couldnt be further from the truth, believe me!

    I havent explained it very well, but I was stating that fact because its a very difficult enviroment to work in if you are of a sensitive disposition as nobody cares what they say and dont make allowances for anyone, male or female. Im treated as 'one of the lads' 90% of the time, and when it comes to standing up for myself is when the other 10% comes in.

    It is, sadly, a fact that my boss did actually say to me that I couldnt be promoted on the part time salary rate because it would mean that I would be earning more than a role carried out by male employees, so its not me jumping on the male/female pay divide bandwagon. I dont care who earns what so long as I get a fair salary for what I do but I do think its wrong that he actually gave that as a reason for not paying me the rate I was worth before I was made full time.

    Yes, I could stop doing the overtime, I could take my holidays (actually, I probably couldnt in all honesty) but the work will still be here when I get back, there is nobody else who can do my job.

    But I do have to thank you, much as I was miffed at being called a Doormat, I have to admit to myself that yes, I am. Writing my post, reading your replies has help me realise it and I just need to figure out what I need to do to change things.
    Originally posted by maddie67


    Well your options are to stay or leave. If you stay you need changes to be made.


    Speak with your manager, if he refuses start looking elsewhere
    • TheGardener
    • By TheGardener 11th Oct 18, 4:26 PM
    • 2,496 Posts
    • 2,446 Thanks
    TheGardener
    Sorry then ��…..
    Last edited by TheGardener; 11-10-2018 at 7:31 PM.
    • gettingtheresometime
    • By gettingtheresometime 11th Oct 18, 5:59 PM
    • 4,247 Posts
    • 10,869 Thanks
    gettingtheresometime
    OP


    I used to be in a similar position to you - going in early & staying late (though I was even more of a mug as I didn't get paid any overtime!).


    It wasn't until a new person started & happened to drop it into the conversation her new salary (which was higher than mine) that I woke up and realised what was happening....ie there was no incentive for my boss to pay me more as he was getting the work done for a bargain price!


    Things only came to a head when I went out and got myself a new job at a much higher salary. On handing my resignation, it transpired that he thought I was on a higher salary than I was on.


    Personally I'd get myself a new job if I was you - you can either use it as leverage for a pay increase where you are (mind you you can only do this once!) or you'll end up in a new job on a higher salary.
    Lloyds OD / Natwest OD / PO CC / Wescott / Argos Card cleared thanks to the 1 debt v 100 day challenge


    Next on the list - JD Williams
    • sangie595
    • By sangie595 11th Oct 18, 6:08 PM
    • 5,702 Posts
    • 9,946 Thanks
    sangie595
    That is unreasonable...

    I'm disappointed by the responses to your post too
    However, this really is a case of deciding how much work you are prepared /paid to do. Then discuss with the manager what the priorities are in terms of what you will and won't cover - confirmed in writing. Then do your job and no one else's.

    If there is no one to cover the work - that is the managers problem and its his responsibility to explain that to Head Office - not you.

    I do get a little bit of a sense from your post that you do, in a teeny weeny bit of a way - enjoy the fact you seem to be indispensable/super woman. You need to stop it. Agree with the manager what your role actually is and stick to it.

    Alternatively - start looking for another job - you sound like you have a lot of skills other companies would be glad to pay well for

    PS Not ensuring staff get the time off they are legal entitled to is illegal.
    Originally posted by TheGardener
    How does your answer differ from that if anyone else here? You have actually said exactly what the answers you are "disappointed" by did! If your are so disappointed, at least come up with a different answer.

    And PS, NO it is not illegal to not ensure that staff get time off that they are legally entitled to. It is unlawful (illegal refers to a criminal offence) to prevent someone from taking the leave to which they are entitled. Nobody is preventing the OP. If the OP wants to not claim it, they are perfectly entitled to. They haven't claimed it.

    If you are going to give advice to people, please ensure that it is remotely accurate. Then they won't get sacked for following advice that is wrong.
    • sangie595
    • By sangie595 11th Oct 18, 6:30 PM
    • 5,702 Posts
    • 9,946 Thanks
    sangie595
    OMG those comments! I can understand you thinking that I was mentioning 'male dominated' because I was feeling discriminated against etc, but that wasnt it, that couldnt be further from the truth, believe me!
    There was ONE COMMENT! Goodness, you're going to get touchy now, after being walked all over for years?

    I havent explained it very well, but I was stating that fact because its a very difficult enviroment to work in if you are of a sensitive disposition You are a grown up employee. Nobody cares if you are "sensitive" or not. You are responsible for your own actions, and there is NO correlation between gender and "sensitivity". If you wish to think that stereotypes are facts and operate on that basis yourself, fine. You are doing neither yourself not anyone else favours. as nobody cares what they say and dont make allowances for anyone, male or female. So it had nothing to do with stereotypes anyway? Im treated as 'one of the lads' 90% of the time, and when it comes to standing up for myself is when the other 10% gets brought in. The person bringing it in its you. Ive worked here many years and we are like family, which is probably why they take me for granted. Really? My family don't take me for granted either! Do yours? If so, then that is about you accepting that position, not about anything else.

    It is, sadly, a fact that my boss did actually say to me that I couldnt be promoted on the part time salary rate because it would mean that I would be earning more than a role carried out by male employees, so its not me jumping on the male/female pay divide bandwagon, it was him. Now you are! But prove that conversation. And also, the context - because given certain situations, the concept of a higher paid hourly worker having a wage that outstrips a salaried employee may be unfair and unacceptable! Thereare differences in pay. Can you evidence that the divergence in pay is about gender and not professional skills. I dont care who earns what so long as I get a fair salary for what I do but I do think its wrong that he actually gave that as a reason for not paying me the rate I was worth before I was made full time. What are you "worth"? I'm genuinely interested. How do you evidence that fact? Not whine about the amount the hours or the pay or anything else, but evidence your worth? Because "i'm worth more" is passive. You are worth what they'll pay you to keep you.

    Yes, I could stop doing the overtime, Yes you couldI could take my holidays (actually, I probably couldnt in all honesty are manacles involved? If not then yes, actually, in all honesty you could.) but the work will still be here when I get back, there is nobody else who can do my job. And you've done what about that? As Ive already mentioned, my boss waited until my assistant was on mat leave before even interviewing for her cover - theres no way he would consider getting me extra help. Why should he? He had a skivvy...

    Non of this alters the fact that my (female) Assistant was being offered almost as much salary as myself btw. So what? What she is paid is nothing to do with you, and that's assuming that you are quite as senior as you think you are. Your pay, holidays and everything else are about you - stop whinging about what everyone else gets!

    But I do have to thank you, much as I was miffed at being called a Doormat, I have to admit to myself that yes, I am. Writing my post, reading your replies has help me realise it and I just need to figure out what I need to do to change things.

    Unfortunately, because of comments like those who replied, Im a little limited as to what Im able to do because Im not that person who is pleading sexual discrimination and looking for my 100,000 payout. Good, because there's no evidence of discriminationI would just like to be able to speak to my boss and be taken seriously about my ever increasing workload and lack of support.
    Originally posted by maddie67


    Your don't take yourself seriously, you have never taken up any of these issues, and you make excuses about not having done anything about it or why you can't. The only thing limiting you is yourself. You came here blaming the employer. Now you are blaming the posters here. You really need to stop blaming others for your own faults and tackle them. I ran out of patience when it now became people here who are the problem. You are a grown up. Act like one.
    • bugslet
    • By bugslet 11th Oct 18, 7:06 PM
    • 6,490 Posts
    • 30,727 Thanks
    bugslet
    To be fair, I am being prevented from taking holidays because there is nobody to cover me and as much as I know my boss won’t say no to a couple of days, he would ask me to wait to take any longer. I had a week off in July while my assistant was still there and I was telephoned to come in and do a specific task that took me half of the Wednesday.

    I’m getting a token few hours overtime payment as a ‘thank you’ Its an empty gesture as I worked more than what I’m being paid - he’s saying “thanks for working 25 hours overtime this month, I will even pay you for 12 of them!”. ordinarily I can’t claim it now that I’m “salaried”
    Originally posted by maddie67
    I run a company, only a small one with 25 employees. Our holidays run from 1st April. If people haven't taken their holiday allowance, I start nagging them in January. Our work is such that we cannot predict when we will and won't be busy and I can't get temp staff in. If it turns out we are busy and people are on holiday it is MY job to work out how we do that.

    If it turns out that one person has regularly too much work to do, then it is MY job to change the workload or get someone in. It is not for my staff to work over what is reasonable. Sure, sometimes we all need to do a bit more, but it's made up when it's quiet and I say go home a few hours early, or I've put a bit extra in your pay.

    There is no way that you should be doing what you do so regularly. If the work doesn't get done because you have been away, that is your boss' problem and s/he should deal with it instead of getting free work from you.

    I'll say it again, woman up FFS.
    • elsien
    • By elsien 11th Oct 18, 7:26 PM
    • 17,813 Posts
    • 45,244 Thanks
    elsien
    You are not being prevented from taking holidays because there is no one to cover you. Your cover while you are on leave is not your problem, it is your bosses.
    You are legally entitled to that leave, so as already suggested, discuss with your boss when it will be taken before the end of the leave year. While pointing out that it will be taken and if he leaves it too long then he'll have you away for weeks in order to fit it in. Then the ball's in his court.
    If you went off sick he would have to find cover. Leave is no different.
    Come in on time. Take your lunch break. Go home on time.
    If any one wants you to prioritise a particular task, ask your boss which one will need to be left uncompleted instead.
    Nothing will change till you put some boundaries in place. I've been where you are, became ill and was unable to return to the job. It's really not worth it.
    All shall be well, and all shall be well, and all manner of things shall be well.

    Pedant alert - it's could have, not could of.
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