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  • FIRST POST
    • familyguy321
    • By familyguy321 5th Apr 19, 10:00 AM
    • 137Posts
    • 49Thanks
    familyguy321
    Fine for entering wrong vehicle reg
    • #1
    • 5th Apr 19, 10:00 AM
    Fine for entering wrong vehicle reg 5th Apr 19 at 10:00 AM
    Hi all,

    As the registered keeper (RK), my mum has received a parking charge notice from a PPC for allegedly 'no payment/ticket'. The driver is adamant that payment was made and that the registration plate may have been entered incorrectly. The RK is determined to fight the charge. Unfortunately, the RK is not able to produce the parking ticket as evidence.

    I intend to visit the car park this weekend to take pictures of signs. Could someone advise:

    1. What should I look for specifically with the signs?

    2. Would it be worth asking the PPC to provide a record of all number plates that were entered in the time period the vehicle was in the car park?

    3. Anything else that can help appeal the charge?

    Any help would be much appreciated.

    Regards,
    FG
Page 3
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 17th May 19, 12:14 PM
    • 74,785 Posts
    • 87,336 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Day 26 has already passed and appeal was made on that date. In fact, my mum received the rejection through the post today. What's the next steps with that?
    POPLA - see the third post of the NEWBIES thread.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • familyguy321
    • By familyguy321 17th May 19, 1:29 PM
    • 137 Posts
    • 49 Thanks
    familyguy321
    Thanks Coupon-Mad, will do.

    Did you get a chance to review my proposed response to OPS in my previous post? Is it clear enough about the records I am after?

    FG
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 17th May 19, 6:30 PM
    • 74,785 Posts
    • 87,336 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Yes it looked fine. Expect another knock back, then try again like a stuck record.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • familyguy321
    • By familyguy321 18th May 19, 6:38 PM
    • 137 Posts
    • 49 Thanks
    familyguy321
    Copy of PCN rejection letter below. They have completely ignored the 2 requests I made in my appeal:

    - If the allegation concerns a PDT machine, the data supplied in response to this appeal must include the record of payments made - showing partial VRNs - and an explanation of the reason for the PCN, because your Notice does not explain it.

    - you must include a close up actual photograph of the sign you contend was at the location on the material date.



    https://cdn1.imggmi.com/uploads/2019/5/18/9904303ffc6d95a260513065f515f416-full.jpg
    Last edited by familyguy321; 30-05-2019 at 12:23 PM.
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 18th May 19, 7:25 PM
    • 24,015 Posts
    • 38,596 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    Copy of PCN rejection letter below. They have completely ignored the 2 requests I made in my appeal:

    - If the allegation concerns a PDT machine, the data supplied in response to this appeal must include the record of payments made - showing partial VRNs - and an explanation of the reason for the PCN, because your Notice does not explain it.

    - you must include a close up actual photograph of the sign you contend was at the location on the material date.



    Originally posted by familyguy321
    They were never going to answer awkward questions. The initial appeal is simply designed to elicit a POPLA Code.
    Please note, we are not a legal, residential or credit advice forum, rather one that helps motorists fight private parking charges, primarily at the 'front-end' of the process.
    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day;
    show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • familyguy321
    • By familyguy321 19th May 19, 6:25 PM
    • 137 Posts
    • 49 Thanks
    familyguy321
    Understood. When is it advisable to submit the POPLA appeal - asap or wait close to the 28 days?
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 19th May 19, 10:39 PM
    • 74,785 Posts
    • 87,336 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    The third post of the NEWBIES thread explains all about POPLA.

    No rush but no need to delay either.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • Woody510
    • By Woody510 20th May 19, 1:31 PM
    • 39 Posts
    • 53 Thanks
    Woody510
    That just so happens to be the exact machine that HX Car parking management use as well. This machine is awful and appears to be extremely faulty and glitchy. Although you were able to enter some digits I wasn't able to and have just been to court today and won. Do you by any chance still have a copy of the ticket the machine printed out?
    • familyguy321
    • By familyguy321 30th May 19, 12:25 PM
    • 137 Posts
    • 49 Thanks
    familyguy321
    That just so happens to be the exact machine that HX Car parking management use as well. This machine is awful and appears to be extremely faulty and glitchy. Although you were able to enter some digits I wasn't able to and have just been to court today and won. Do you by any chance still have a copy of the ticket the machine printed out?
    Originally posted by Woody510
    Hi Woody, thanks for the info. Unfortunately, ticket was thrown away.

    Do you have a thread with details of the steps you took? If not, could you please send me your POPLA appeal?
    • familyguy321
    • By familyguy321 30th May 19, 12:31 PM
    • 137 Posts
    • 49 Thanks
    familyguy321
    RK received second response from OPS regarding SAR.

    As a reminder, their original response to the SAR is detailed in Post 37.

    In response, RK sent following email:

    For the attention of the Data Protection Officer,

    Thank you for the information provided. With regards to the data from your PDT machine, this has not been produced in line with my request.

    For clarity, could you please provide me with a redacted copy of any records from the PDT machines within GS Car Park, Mansfield Street, Leicester, LE1 3DL on 22 March 2019 between 16:23 and 16:40. These records should include payments made during this period that are not matched to a vehicle recorded as present.

    I look forward to hearing back from you shortly.
    OPS have now responded with:

    Dear <RK name>,

    We are not obliged to share information from the pay & display machine unless it relates to your vehicle.

    As previously stated, your vehicle does not feature on the data.
    Is this right? Surely they can provide records of payments that are not matched to a vehicle within that timeframe?
    Last edited by familyguy321; 30-05-2019 at 12:51 PM.
    • Quentin
    • By Quentin 30th May 19, 12:57 PM
    • 39,840 Posts
    • 23,881 Thanks
    Quentin
    Hi Woody, ........
    Do you have a thread with details of the steps you took? If not, could you please send me your POPLA appeal?
    Originally posted by familyguy321
    https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5940013
    • Woody510
    • By Woody510 30th May 19, 1:58 PM
    • 39 Posts
    • 53 Thanks
    Woody510
    I didn't do a popla appeal. I appealed directly to HX but apparently a copy of their ticket wasn't proof of payment luckily the judge disagreed with them.
    • familyguy321
    • By familyguy321 30th May 19, 2:08 PM
    • 137 Posts
    • 49 Thanks
    familyguy321
    I didn't do a popla appeal. I appealed directly to HX but apparently a copy of their ticket wasn't proof of payment luckily the judge disagreed with them.
    Originally posted by Woody510
    Yes, just read through your thread. Glad the judge had more common sense than HX.

    Unfortunately, in this case the driver did not keep a copy of the ticket. Payment was definitely made though.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 31st May 19, 12:46 AM
    • 74,785 Posts
    • 87,336 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    RK received second response from OPS regarding SAR.

    Is this right? Surely they can provide records of payments that are not matched to a vehicle within that timeframe?
    Originally posted by familyguy321
    It is not right, it is a scam.

    They know full well which payment/data is yours, because presumably it will be a close match to your VRN, just a small keying error (not necessarily caused by the driver of course, could just as easily be caused by a sticky or sun-faded set of keys on an old machine).

    Same advice as I gave this person, push it to the ICO:

    https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=75861576#post75861576

    If the payment with the similar number-plate has been identified as your data/your payment (and no other person's data) and is being used as court evidence, then that data which is about your payment and use of the PDT machine that day, MUST be supplied within a SAR.

    They can't use the data to fuel a court case yet deny you the same data in a SAR!
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • familyguy321
    • By familyguy321 31st May 19, 1:34 AM
    • 137 Posts
    • 49 Thanks
    familyguy321
    It is not right, it is a scam.

    They know full well which payment/data is yours, because presumably it will be a close match to your VRN, just a small keying error (not necessarily caused by the driver of course, could just as easily be caused by a sticky or sun-faded set of keys on an old machine).

    Same advice as I gave this person, push it to the ICO:

    https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=75861576#post75861576

    If the payment with the similar number-plate has been identified as your data/your payment (and no other person's data) and is being used as court evidence, then that data which is about your payment and use of the PDT machine that day, MUST be supplied within a SAR.

    They can't use the data to fuel a court case yet deny you the same data in a SAR!
    Originally posted by Coupon-mad
    Unfortunately it will not be a close match to the VRN. Having spoken to the driver, it would seem the ticket was produced with just 1 character being entered. They stated the keypad and instructions were confusing - I can completely understand having seen the machine in question (pictures in an earlier post).

    Nevertheless, OPS will have a record of a payment being made with an unmatched VRN in the tight time period have given them in the SAR.

    I'm going to start drafting a POPLA appeal on behalf of RK. I feel like this is going to court and I may have to base the case on the grounds of signage....it never states on the boards that ticket should have correct VRN.

    FG
    • familyguy321
    • By familyguy321 8th Jun 19, 6:18 PM
    • 137 Posts
    • 49 Thanks
    familyguy321
    I need to submit my POPLA appeal tomorrow and have drafted the below. Could someone please read through and advise if this is sufficient (not sure if I should go into more detail about ANPR data breach). I have highlighted the questions from the POPLA website in bold.

    Please write a short summary of this ground of appeal
    I am appealing on the grounds that, quite simply, payment was made for the parking in line with the terms and conditions of the car park. I parked my vehicle XXXXXXX in GS Car Park, Mansfield Street, Leicester, LE1 3DL at approx. 16:25 on Friday 22nd March 2019. I paid £1.30 for 1 hours parking and displayed the car parking ticket inside my vehicle’s windscreen. I left the car park at approx. 17:00.

    The referenced PCN xxxxxxxx was issued to me by One Parking Solution (OPS) on Thursday 27th March 2019 alleging that I had not paid for my parking. Immediately, on receipt of this I searched for the car parking ticket and unfortunately I realised that I had already thrown it away in that morning’s recycling collection. I cast my mind back to the day and recalled that I had difficulty entering my registration into the machine keypad and may have mis-typed some letters in error. Therefore, there should be a payment of £1.30 not matched to a vehicle.
    I submitted a Subject Access Request (SAR) to OPS on 10th April 2019 requesting a redacted copy of any records from the parking payment machines in that car park between the time by vehicle entered and exited. I asked that the records include payments made during this period that are not matched to a vehicle recorded as present. Unfortunately, OPS responded that they are not obliged to share the information unless it relates to my vehicle.
    On 23rd April 2019 at 22:30, I submitted an appeal to OPS disputing the alleged charge for the reason that I had paid payment. I explained that it is possible that the vehicle registration number was not fully entered and therefore the payment was not matched to the vehicle. This could be seen if they were to cross-reference payments made during the time my vehicle entered and exited the car park.
    Following this, I received a letter from OPS dated 13th May 2019 stating that my appeal has been rejected. A POPLA code was provided which is the route I have now taken to appeal their decision.

    Where within your car did you display your parking ticket?
    Inside windscreen. Unfortunately, I did not take a photo of the car parking ticket displayed as I did not think this was necessary as payment was made.


    Why do you perceive that the terms and conditions of the car park were not properly signed (for example where they blocked, too small, or not showing)?
    In the appeal rejection letter from OPS, they state it is the driver’s responsibility to always ensure they are fully aware of and adhere to the terms and conditions when parking on private land. I revisited the car park and noted that there are two separate boards with different terms and conditions (pictures attached). There is a small board near the entrance that states 3 conditions for a parking charge notice:
    1. Failure to purchase a ticket
    2. Expired tickets
    3. Failure to correctly display a valid ticket within your windscreen

    And then there is a larger board close to the payment machine which states 5 conditions for a parking ticket:
    1. Failure to display a valid ticket or permit
    2. Under payment
    3. Failure to park in marked bay
    4. Parking in disabled bay, without displaying a valid badge
    5. Ticket transfer from vehicle to vehicle

    Firstly, I have not breached any of these conditions as I paid fully for the time I was in the car park. Secondly, the signage is not clear as there are different sets of conditions.
    I also took a picture of the payment machine (attached). This shows how confusing the instructions are and has its own set of conditions of use:
    1. Valid ticket must be clearly displayed in windscreen
    2. Vehicles must be parked wholly within marked parking bay
    3. Vehicles must not overstay paid parking time

    Further to this, there is a separate small sign that states this is an ANPR car park. The sign does not form part of any contact and neither does it state that ANPR will be used to record my registration number and collect data. I strongly believe that this charge was not properly given because it breaches the BPA Code of Practice regarding ANPR which requires checks to be made to ensure that a charge is ‘appropriate’ before issuing a PCN.

    The payment made would in fact be very easy to identify if this operator had carried out the necessary checks required in the BPA CoP, so I suggest these checks were not made and that the operator has contravened the requirements of professional diligence; a duty of consumer-facing service providers.

    I put this operator to strict proof that these checks were made (showing full records from that day including the VRN list of payments around the time in question) and to explain why a charge was issued when they would indisputably have identified the matching 1 hour payment. The operator would have been in no doubt that the car parking was paid for, had they made the required checks.

    And the situation is fully within this operator’s control. As cameras are used to record number plates entering and leaving then they should be connected to the ticket machines. As a number-plate begins to be typed, a truly ‘connected’ system would find the ANPR image and simply require the driver to confirm that this is their vehicle, and the system would show the time of arrival (all details known to the system already).

    Can you provide any evidence to support your claim that the terms and conditions were not properly signed?
    I will attached photos from Post #17.

    What did the signage at the car park say?
    Detailed above

    Why do you consider you complied with the signage?
    I met all terms and conditions as explained above

    Why does the parking operator consider you to have failed to comply with the signage?
    Because they can’t find a payment that matches my vehicle registration number.
    Last edited by familyguy321; 08-06-2019 at 6:23 PM.
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 8th Jun 19, 11:38 PM
    • 16,006 Posts
    • 19,130 Thanks
    KeithP
    Why are you answering the questions on the PoPLA website?

    Have you not yet read post #3 of the NEWBIES thread?
    That post explains exactly how to create a winning PoPLA appeal.

    But you already know that - please re-read posts #41 and #47 posted three weeks ago.
    Last edited by KeithP; 08-06-2019 at 11:41 PM.
    .
    • familyguy321
    • By familyguy321 9th Jun 19, 12:03 AM
    • 137 Posts
    • 49 Thanks
    familyguy321
    Hi Keith,

    Apologies, I'm under a lot of stress at the moment and finding this appeal overwhelming. I just went on the PoPLA website to see how to submit the appeal and assumed the questions were the way.

    Sometimes I wish I just paid the £60 at first to avoid all this stress but a little voice tells me stick to priniples and fight on.

    Putting aside the format of my appeal, is there anything I should change in terms of the wording or arguments?

    FG
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 9th Jun 19, 12:14 AM
    • 16,006 Posts
    • 19,130 Thanks
    KeithP
    Putting aside the format of my appeal, is there anything I should change in terms of the wording or arguments?
    Originally posted by familyguy321
    Yes.

    I would suggest you look at some of the example PoPLA appeals linked from post #3 of that NEWBIES thread.

    Most of the wording is written for you. You mostly have to copy and paste near template appeal points.
    .
    • familyguy321
    • By familyguy321 9th Jun 19, 12:28 AM
    • 137 Posts
    • 49 Thanks
    familyguy321
    I did look and you might notice some of the wording I've used is copied from those. The problem is that I can't find a template that relates to my situation i.e. no copy of ticket and relying on just the signage being unclear. Other appeals have a strong case where the machine has genuinely or they have a copy of their ticket to prove they paid.

    I'm really not good at this sort of thing and heavily reliant on the goodwill of you guys to help me out please.
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