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  • FIRST POST
    • toshkininny
    • By toshkininny 17th May 19, 8:46 AM
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    toshkininny
    Can BT charge for calling a non answered mobile from a landline?
    • #1
    • 17th May 19, 8:46 AM
    Can BT charge for calling a non answered mobile from a landline? 17th May 19 at 8:46 AM
    I just want to check if this is common.

    I have on occasions when we can't find our mobiles, called them from the landline, just for a couple of seconds and not picked up the call from the mobile - just disconnected it. My BT bill has now come in saying mobile phone called for one second and charging 0.33p. How can they charge for phoning a mobile when we haven't even connected? Is this right?
Page 1
    • Ian011
    • By Ian011 17th May 19, 9:49 AM
    • 2,237 Posts
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    Ian011
    • #2
    • 17th May 19, 9:49 AM
    • #2
    • 17th May 19, 9:49 AM
    The charge for calling a mobile number from a BT landline would also include a 21p connection fee, so a charge of 0.33p is totally incorrect anyway.

    For unanswered calls there should be no charge. However, mobile phone voicemail kicking in would invoke a charge.
    • toshkininny
    • By toshkininny 17th May 19, 9:57 AM
    • 1,129 Posts
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    toshkininny
    • #3
    • 17th May 19, 9:57 AM
    • #3
    • 17th May 19, 9:57 AM
    So even if you don't talk to someone and just ring a mobile, you are going to be charged at least 0.21p for the privilege - that is what they call a connection fee? - I thought connection meant when you actually get to speak to someone.
    • Ian011
    • By Ian011 17th May 19, 11:31 AM
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    Ian011
    • #4
    • 17th May 19, 11:31 AM
    • #4
    • 17th May 19, 11:31 AM
    Can you clarify that you didn't mean 0.33p (one third of a penny) in your OP, you instead meant 33p or £0.33 and in your next post you didn't mean 0.21p (one fifth of a penny) but instead meant 21p or £0.21?

    To clarify the point made in a previous post, if a call is not answered, either by a person or by voicemail, or in any other way, for example by a fax machine, there should be no charge to the caller.
    • frugalmacdugal
    • By frugalmacdugal 17th May 19, 11:44 AM
    • 6,570 Posts
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    frugalmacdugal
    • #5
    • 17th May 19, 11:44 AM
    • #5
    • 17th May 19, 11:44 AM
    Hi,


    methinks there will be the call connection fee, which connects your phone to whoever you are calling, then a charge for however long the phones are connected, whether answered on not.
    Y'all take care now.
    • toshkininny
    • By toshkininny 17th May 19, 12:42 PM
    • 1,129 Posts
    • 622 Thanks
    toshkininny
    • #6
    • 17th May 19, 12:42 PM
    • #6
    • 17th May 19, 12:42 PM
    Hi Ive been charged 33p for one second to a mobile from a landline.
    • toshkininny
    • By toshkininny 17th May 19, 12:44 PM
    • 1,129 Posts
    • 622 Thanks
    toshkininny
    • #7
    • 17th May 19, 12:44 PM
    • #7
    • 17th May 19, 12:44 PM
    and on another mobile phone number have been charged 33p for 5 seconds.
    • frugalmacdugal
    • By frugalmacdugal 17th May 19, 12:50 PM
    • 6,570 Posts
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    frugalmacdugal
    • #8
    • 17th May 19, 12:50 PM
    • #8
    • 17th May 19, 12:50 PM
    Hi,


    landline to mobile is dearer than mob to mob.


    Edit: on call charges you are charged per minute, rounded up, not by the second.
    Last edited by frugalmacdugal; 17-05-2019 at 12:53 PM.
    Y'all take care now.
    • JJ Egan
    • By JJ Egan 17th May 19, 12:50 PM
    • 12,529 Posts
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    JJ Egan
    • #9
    • 17th May 19, 12:50 PM
    • #9
    • 17th May 19, 12:50 PM
    Are they connecting to voice mail even if cut off at start of VM ??
    • Ian011
    • By Ian011 17th May 19, 1:36 PM
    • 2,237 Posts
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    Ian011
    Hi Ive been charged 33p for one second to a mobile from a landline.
    Originally posted by toshkininny
    and on another mobile phone number have been charged 33p for 5 seconds.
    Originally posted by toshkininny
    33p sounds like a fixed 21p connection fee plus 12p per minute, billed by the second but with a minimum one minute charge.

    The call must have been answered in some way, as explained above, for the charges to have occurred.
    • Buzby
    • By Buzby 17th May 19, 7:59 PM
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    Buzby
    Yes - you ARE charged irrespective of whether the distant party answers. The rules were changed a good few years ago to stop an anomaly of when you could signal someone by ringing (Say 3 rings) then ending the call before an answer. This previously meant calls were only billed when the home network received an answer/charge signal from call recipient. The caller used the network resources to set up the call, it was transported correctly and the distant network delivered it and it rang out, but nobody was getting paid.

    OFCOM agreed that instead of an answer/charge as the definitive charging point, it would be moved, so that as soon as the the originating network passed the call to the receiving network ‘the gateway’ this would be the charging point, NOT when the distant end answered. Calls handled wholly within the same network meant charging on answer happened as before, but with number portability, nobody can tell where the call will end up so they may or may not be a charge. Transparent s mud, eh!

    .
    • Ian011
    • By Ian011 17th May 19, 11:15 PM
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    Ian011
    That is quite some claim and very different to long-accepted practice. Have you got a definitive link to where Ofcom said this?
    • SnowTiger
    • By SnowTiger 18th May 19, 1:20 AM
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    SnowTiger
    Yes - you ARE charged irrespective of whether the distant party answers. The rules were changed a good few years ago to stop an anomaly of when you could signal someone by ringing (Say 3 rings) then ending the call before an answer. This previously meant calls were only billed when the home network received an answer/charge signal from call recipient. The caller used the network resources to set up the call, it was transported correctly and the distant network delivered it and it rang out, but nobody was getting paid.

    OFCOM agreed that instead of an answer/charge as the definitive charging point, it would be moved, so that as soon as the the originating network passed the call to the receiving network ‘the gateway’ this would be the charging point, NOT when the distant end answered. Calls handled wholly within the same network meant charging on answer happened as before, but with number portability, nobody can tell where the call will end up so they may or may not be a charge. Transparent s mud, eh!

    .
    Originally posted by Buzby
    Are you sure? I can't find anything to confirm that.

    BT, itself, says:

    What's a set-up fee?

    It's a one-off fee we charge once the call's connected and the pence per minute rate starts. For example, if a call takes five minutes, you'll pay the set-up fee plus five minutes at the pence-per-minute rate.
    And it isn't mentioned in BT's tariff guide.

    My thinking is that if this charging mechanism is in operation it's between networks and the charge, which is probably very small, is not passed on to customers.

    Rather like how ATM operators charge 20p for every cash withdrawal, but that cost is rarely passed on to the end customers.
    • unforeseen
    • By unforeseen 18th May 19, 5:34 AM
    • 3,765 Posts
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    unforeseen
    If you look on the BT community site then this was happening back in 2013 so not a new thing.

    ETA seems to happen with Plus net as well
    • brewerdave
    • By brewerdave 18th May 19, 7:29 AM
    • 5,593 Posts
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    brewerdave
    Certainly has been happening for some time. When I looked at my late mother's BT bill for her, we found a number of charged calls she had made from her home phone to a granddaughter's mobile where they had been no answer - worked out as connection charge plus 1 minute per call.
    • Buzby
    • By Buzby 18th May 19, 11:28 AM
    • 8,201 Posts
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    Buzby
    Define ‘long accepted practice’? This happened back prior to 2004 when I noticed pricing differences due to calls that terminated without going through a telecoms gateway against those that did so is certainly not new. This also predated the nonsense of splitting the costs for consumers into a connection and service charge which whilst lauded as making things transparent, simply added to customer confusion.

    Similarly, in addition to mobile call increases for unanswered calls, BT were a primary driver when they provided external telcos with the lookup tables to successfully provide the actual destination number for 0800 Freefone numbers. When Mercury came along and were allocated 0500 for Freefone, it was said their charge to provide the lookup was higher than BT so things started to unravel.
    • SnowTiger
    • By SnowTiger 18th May 19, 12:51 PM
    • 3,727 Posts
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    SnowTiger
    Define ‘long accepted practice’? This happened back prior to 2004 when I noticed pricing differences due to calls that terminated without going through a telecoms gateway against those that did so is certainly not new. This also predated the nonsense of splitting the costs for consumers into a connection and service charge which whilst lauded as making things transparent, simply added to customer confusion.

    Similarly, in addition to mobile call increases for unanswered calls, BT were a primary driver when they provided external telcos with the lookup tables to successfully provide the actual destination number for 0800 Freefone numbers. When Mercury came along and were allocated 0500 for Freefone, it was said their charge to provide the lookup was higher than BT so things started to unravel.
    Originally posted by Buzby
    I see.

    Given your username and the amount of detail you posted I anticipated you'd post a URL, linking to charging details, as evident that BT charges for unanswered calls to mobiles.

    Instead, you post a nonsense ramble about some 'research' you carried out fifteen years ago in 2004.

    It appears that charges for calls to unanswered mobiles were dropped twenty years ago. From a BBC News article dated 15th December 1998:

    The practice of charging for unanswered calls on both networks will also stop. Oftel said if the other two major networks, Orange and One 2 One, follow suit it would save mobile phone users around £1bn a year.
    As for you comment about Mercury:

    In 1997, Mercury ceased to exist as a brand with its amalgamation into the operations of Cable & Wireless Communications, and totally exited from the telecommunications business by 1999.
    Whatever information you think you have seems to be fifteen to twenty years out of date.
    • Ian011
    • By Ian011 18th May 19, 1:57 PM
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    • 1,354 Thanks
    Ian011
    This also predated the nonsense of splitting the costs for consumers into a connection and service charge which whilst lauded as making things transparent, simply added to customer confusion.
    Originally posted by Buzby
    If you are talking about the splitting of call charges for calls to 084, 087, 09 and 118 numbers into an Access Charge and a Service Charge then this is not nonsense at all. For many years, providers of 084 and 087 numbers had claimed these were local rate or national rate calls where the call recipient could earn revenue while the caller didn't pay anything extra for the call. Like all things that sound too good to be true, it was a con - a con that sucked tens of thousands of businesses into adopting these numbers at the (vast) expense of consumers.

    Most people have an inclusive calls allowance and pay no additional charges to call ordinary landline or mobile numbers. This is made possible by the very low termination (a.k.a. wholesale) rates on these calls. The termination rate on calls to 084 and 087 number was, and still is, very much higher, and it is this additional revenue that allows the call recipient to receive a revenue share rake off. It is this higher rate that also prevents these calls being included in caller allowances.

    After a long delay, Ofcom eventually made the excellent decision to split the call cost into Access Charge and Service Charge so as to make these details abundantly clear to all parties. At the same time, other bodies (e.g. BIS, FCA, Cabinet Office) were formulating regulations or guidance to prevent expensive telephone numbers being used for customer service lines or by public services.

    Telecoms providers lobbied very hard that 084 and 087 numbers should be considered as "low rate" calls and for their use to be allowed to be continued. Ofcom's work on splitting the call charges into two parts along with the knowledge about inclusive call deals, exposed the detail that 084 and 087 numbers are not "low rate" calls at all, but are in fact a form of premium rate number - the additional Service Charge is the premium. Once this was established it paved the way for usage of 084 and 087 numbers to be banned for almost all purposes they had previously been used for.

    Now, a few years later, with much lower usage, usage that is still declining, Ofcom has started to consider scrapping both of these number ranges. This would not have been possible if the previous opaque "calls cost Xp per minute from a BT landline, other providers may charge more" nonsense had been allowed to continue.
    Last edited by Ian011; 18-05-2019 at 2:21 PM.
    • Buzby
    • By Buzby 18th May 19, 3:36 PM
    • 8,201 Posts
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    Buzby
    I see.

    Given your username and the amount of detail you posted I anticipated you'd post a URL, linking to charging details, as evident that BT charges for unanswered calls to mobiles.

    Whatever information you think you have seems to be fifteen to twenty years out of date.
    Originally posted by SnowTiger
    Oh please - it’s water off a duck’s back. The charging processes have not changed in the last 15 years and this was the issue - correcting this misconception that no answer = no cost to the caller. If you want a URL, look it up yourself. I have a physical copy contained within the BT Price List that explained charging commenced on handoff to the receiving network. (If not BT) The fact you wish to throw insults and start a flame war is fine - you’ll be in an empty room.

    You also confuse the issues - Mercury One2One used a timer, not C7 signalling to base when the call charge should commence. I recall it was 7 seconds, and nothing to do with transiting calls between networks. It was this that was deemed unfair and was dropped with good reason. A side issue, which BT took flak for - was when a caller from a payphone called a mobile (never a moneysaving process) the callers credit decremented as the call passed through the network gateway. Often folk missed that this was prior to voicemail answering, but it was galling when you got a recorded message saying the mobile was unavailable.

    As the OP was wondering why they were charged for an unanswered call - the response is correct, billing commences at the gateway, not on answer.
    • Buzby
    • By Buzby 18th May 19, 4:03 PM
    • 8,201 Posts
    • 3,011 Thanks
    Buzby
    If you are talking about the splitting of call charges for calls to 084, 087, 09 and 118 numbers into an Access Charge and a Service Charge then this is not nonsense at all. For many years, providers of 084 and 087 numbers had claimed these were local rate or national rate calls where the call recipient could earn revenue while the caller didn't pay anything extra for the call. Like all things that sound too good to be true, it was a con - a con that sucked tens of thousands of businesses into adopting these numbers at the (vast) expense of consumers.
    .
    Originally posted by Ian011
    It is complete nonsense, because the consumer is no better off in understanding the cost in a simple way. Since every telco has its own rates, the caller will need his network price guide and go down to the 5th digit to discover the cost, of the connection, then factor in the per minute cost for the rest - Ah, but then charging is based on not when they answer, but on the gateway, and is it pro rata or rounded to the next minute? Possibly VAT extra too? Clear as mud. You criticised providers claiming calls were equal to a local or national call long after even BT dropped these delimiters ending charging by distance. A complaint to the ASA to outlaw such descriptions got absolutely nowhere as they said it was ‘generally accepted’ a useful indicator of costs.

    The networks too got on the act, saying that all calls to 01,02 and 03 were the same cost. No they weren’t! If the 01 code connected to the CI or IoM you paid more, NOT the 01 cost promised. Other exceptions meant 07 was split into multiple charge rates and the only time you knew the true cost was when the bill came in. In 2019, clairvoyance is still required and you have to ask if this is satisfactory after such a long time.

    Lastly, back when I had an ISDN 30 connection (1990) I fount I could programme my terminals to present any number I wished (now called ‘spoofing’) in those 30 years no network has done anything to prevent the C7 signalling being used to modify the presentation numbers displayed by Caller Display devices - it has always been open to abuse, and now is a major concern as small switching systems make this potential for fraud as easy as pressing a few keys.

    Having knowledge of some of OFTEL/OFCOM perverse decisions over the last 30 years makes you realise its mostly a mess, with reactive decisions often having to be unwound later - ‘premium’ rated phone calls being the star.
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