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  • FIRST POST
    • Kiko4564
    • By Kiko4564 8th May 19, 8:28 PM
    • 82Posts
    • 15Thanks
    Kiko4564
    Issued a Bylaw 13 letter by the BTP
    • #1
    • 8th May 19, 8:28 PM
    Issued a Bylaw 13 letter by the BTP 8th May 19 at 8:28 PM
    Can you please advise me if the following warning letter issued by a Sergeant based at BTP's Police office in Norwich Railway Station actually has any lawful validity or is it just a load of tripe? If it is valid can you help me challenge it please?

    5th April 2019

    (Full name and address removed)

    Dear Mr Potter

    I am writing to you in regards to your recent behaviour at Norwich Rail (sic) Station where you have been seen loitering resulting in a large amount of intelligence being gathered.. (sic) This letter is to advise you that it is against the railway byelaws to loiter or remain at a railway station when asked to leave by an authorised person. This is contrary to byelaw 13(2) and 24 of the Railway Byelaws made under Section 219 of the Transport Act 2000 by the Strategic Railway Authority and confirmed under schedule 20 of the Transport Act 2000, as amended by Section 46 of the Railways Act 2005
    The definition of an authorised person includes any constable acting in the execution of their duties upon or in connection with the railway.
    This letter is to advise you that the only reason for you to be at a station is to purchase a ticket or to travel on the next available service. If for any reason you are not doing either or you do not board the next available service then you will be liable to prosecution. This letter serves as direction for you to not remain on the railway unless it is for the above reasons.
    Furthermore you are aware you are not permitted to film whilst on the railway without written permission. This also includes filming parts of the rail network and people using it as it will constitute further offences under the railway byelaws.
    Should you continue to breach the byelaws then as well as prosecution we will seek to apply banning conditions against you on the rail network.

    Yours Sincerely

    [REDACTED]
    Norwich BTP

    British Transport Police

    British Transport Police
    Norwich Train Station
    Station Approach
    Norwich NR1 1EG

    (DX contact details removed)

    Tel: 0800 40 50 40

    A copy of Railway Bylaw 13 and part of Bylaw 25 (1) which highlights the definition of an "authorised person" is then provided.

    This letter now raises the question of validity given that the spirit of Railway Bylaw 13 (2) appears to be to allow an authorised person to remove someone loitering on the railway for a short amount of time (not to exceed 24 hours) by requiring that they leave the premises.
    Last edited by Kiko4564; 08-05-2019 at 9:58 PM.
Page 1
    • twhitehousescat
    • By twhitehousescat 8th May 19, 8:36 PM
    • 3,903 Posts
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    twhitehousescat
    • #2
    • 8th May 19, 8:36 PM
    • #2
    • 8th May 19, 8:36 PM
    trainspotters will be prosicuted
    Time pretending I was asleep whilst under his desk , has given me insight to this sordid world
    • Manxman in exile
    • By Manxman in exile 8th May 19, 8:52 PM
    • 2,425 Posts
    • 2,072 Thanks
    Manxman in exile
    • #3
    • 8th May 19, 8:52 PM
    • #3
    • 8th May 19, 8:52 PM
    Ignoring the fact that they can't spell "bylaw", does the excerpt of the legislation they've provided cover your "loitering"?


    Out of interest, what were you doing to constitute loitering?


    You could try: https://www.railforums.co.uk/forums/disputes-prosecutions.152/
    • Kiko4564
    • By Kiko4564 8th May 19, 8:52 PM
    • 82 Posts
    • 15 Thanks
    Kiko4564
    • #4
    • 8th May 19, 8:52 PM
    • #4
    • 8th May 19, 8:52 PM
    The letter doesn't actually say that and to be fair to the Sergeant in question I actually asked him that question. He said that trainspotting is fine and not in breach of that letter. I have however been advised by another BTP officer (Craig) that I should request permission from a member of Greater Anglia (the TOC who manage Norwich station) staff before trainspotting unless travelling on the next available service.
    Last edited by Kiko4564; 08-05-2019 at 9:00 PM. Reason: I don't think naming this officer is appropriate either
    • Kiko4564
    • By Kiko4564 8th May 19, 8:53 PM
    • 82 Posts
    • 15 Thanks
    Kiko4564
    • #5
    • 8th May 19, 8:53 PM
    • #5
    • 8th May 19, 8:53 PM
    I've already checked out the RailUK forums thank you.
    Last edited by Kiko4564; 08-05-2019 at 9:56 PM.
    • Kiko4564
    • By Kiko4564 8th May 19, 8:56 PM
    • 82 Posts
    • 15 Thanks
    Kiko4564
    • #6
    • 8th May 19, 8:56 PM
    • #6
    • 8th May 19, 8:56 PM
    It arguably does because "loitering" is not defined.

    I was allegedly following a female Police officer around and admiring her. This was part of the conduct which resulted in me later being arrested for harassing her and one of her colleagues.

    This is a full copy of the Railway Bylaws (2005) which the Sergeant quoted in his letter to me: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/4202/railway-byelaws.pdf
    Last edited by Kiko4564; 08-05-2019 at 9:01 PM. Reason: I don't think naming this officer is appropriate
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 8th May 19, 9:23 PM
    • 15,275 Posts
    • 17,788 Thanks
    KeithP
    • #7
    • 8th May 19, 9:23 PM
    • #7
    • 8th May 19, 9:23 PM
    Did you notice how Byelaws was spelt in that Government link you provided?

    Not sure why you have so many (sic)s in your copy of their letter in your opening post.

    Anyway, that aside, The last post on that RaiUK thread you have shown us says:
    The history of this individual is readily available online in both the local and national press. Hence his postings on this forum should be taken particularly seriously and not encouraged.
    by RailUK
    Mark, it might be best if you let this drop and follow the guidance the BTP have given you.
    .
    • Kiko4564
    • By Kiko4564 8th May 19, 9:53 PM
    • 82 Posts
    • 15 Thanks
    Kiko4564
    • #8
    • 8th May 19, 9:53 PM
    • #8
    • 8th May 19, 9:53 PM
    I did notice. I have therefore reversed myself and removed most of "(sic)"s.

    It might be best if I wait for people to contribute to this thread and make an informed decision once a few more people have posted.

    Why should I follow the guidance that the Sergeant has provided me when it is legally tripe (as far as I'm concerned) and I am not actually banned from the Railway station by the landowner (Network Rail) or the TOC who manage it (Greater Anglia)? As far as I'm concerned no Bylaw offence is made out if I simply return to Norwich station and remain there whether I'm travelling or not.
    Last edited by Kiko4564; 08-05-2019 at 10:00 PM.
    • Manxman in exile
    • By Manxman in exile 8th May 19, 10:14 PM
    • 2,425 Posts
    • 2,072 Thanks
    Manxman in exile
    • #9
    • 8th May 19, 10:14 PM
    • #9
    • 8th May 19, 10:14 PM
    Did you notice how Byelaws was spelt in that Government link you provided?

    Not sure why you have so many (sic)s in your copy of their letter in your opening post.

    Anyway, that aside, The last post on that RaiUK thread you have shown us says:


    Mark, it might be best if you let this drop and follow the guidance the BTP have given you
    .
    Originally posted by KeithP

    That's interesting! The OP has also posted on Legal Beagles.


    As an aside, surely "by-law" is not spelt "byelaw"? (I don't care what that .gov link says!)
    • Comms69
    • By Comms69 9th May 19, 9:21 AM
    • 8,684 Posts
    • 9,862 Thanks
    Comms69
    Can you please advise me if the following warning letter issued by a Sergeant based at BTP's Police office in Norwich Railway Station actually has any lawful validity or is it just a load of tripe? If it is valid can you help me challenge it please?

    5th April 2019

    (Full name and address removed)

    Dear Mr Potter

    I am writing to you in regards to your recent behaviour at Norwich Rail (sic) Station where you have been seen loitering resulting in a large amount of intelligence being gathered.. (sic) This letter is to advise you that it is against the railway byelaws to loiter or remain at a railway station when asked to leave by an authorised person. This is contrary to byelaw 13(2) and 24 of the Railway Byelaws made under Section 219 of the Transport Act 2000 by the Strategic Railway Authority and confirmed under schedule 20 of the Transport Act 2000, as amended by Section 46 of the Railways Act 2005
    The definition of an authorised person includes any constable acting in the execution of their duties upon or in connection with the railway.
    This letter is to advise you that the only reason for you to be at a station is to purchase a ticket or to travel on the next available service. If for any reason you are not doing either or you do not board the next available service then you will be liable to prosecution. This letter serves as direction for you to not remain on the railway unless it is for the above reasons.
    Furthermore you are aware you are not permitted to film whilst on the railway without written permission. This also includes filming parts of the rail network and people using it as it will constitute further offences under the railway byelaws.
    Should you continue to breach the byelaws then as well as prosecution we will seek to apply banning conditions against you on the rail network.

    Yours Sincerely

    [REDACTED]
    Norwich BTP

    British Transport Police

    British Transport Police
    Norwich Train Station
    Station Approach
    Norwich NR1 1EG

    (DX contact details removed)

    Tel: 0800 40 50 40

    A copy of Railway Bylaw 13 and part of Bylaw 25 (1) which highlights the definition of an "authorised person" is then provided.

    This letter now raises the question of validity given that the spirit of Railway Bylaw 13 (2) appears to be to allow an authorised person to remove someone loitering on the railway for a short amount of time (not to exceed 24 hours) by requiring that they leave the premises.
    Originally posted by Kiko4564


    Potters Police Videos by any chance.


    I'd suggest that you avoid doing this activity; and abide by the instructions in the letter.
    • Kiko4564
    • By Kiko4564 9th May 19, 9:58 AM
    • 82 Posts
    • 15 Thanks
    Kiko4564
    Someone on the RailUK Forum said:
    "The history of this individual is readily available online in both the local and national press. Hence his postings on this forum should be taken particularly seriously and not encouraged."
    • Comms69
    • By Comms69 9th May 19, 10:30 AM
    • 8,684 Posts
    • 9,862 Thanks
    Comms69
    Someone on the RailUK Forum said:
    "The history of this individual is readily available online in both the local and national press. Hence his postings on this forum should be taken particularly seriously and not encouraged."
    Originally posted by Kiko4564


    I understand you have some difficulties in terms of mental health - being diplomatic, not assuming what condition you have.


    As such you struggle with some social interactions and have a keen interest in the police. The problem is that the way you handle the situation is usually to your disadvantage and that you have a court order prohibiting the filming of police in a certain county.


    I won't go into it too much here - though this is all publically available. I would urge you to engage with the police. If you have a genuine interest in trains and engage with them, there is likely to be a solution.


    However if you simply attended to film BTP officers, given your history, it is likely to end in a banning order from the railways. Which would make it very difficult for you to travel.
    • agrinnall
    • By agrinnall 9th May 19, 11:22 AM
    • 22,823 Posts
    • 18,832 Thanks
    agrinnall
    Different spellings - byelaw, by-law, bylaw - all seem to be acceptable. Byelaw appears to be the most common usage in UK offical documents.
    • molerat
    • By molerat 9th May 19, 11:43 AM
    • 20,755 Posts
    • 15,022 Thanks
    molerat
    Potters Police Videos by any chance.

    I'd suggest that you avoid doing this activity; and abide by the instructions in the letter.
    Originally posted by Comms69
    Agree totally. I have just Googled, OMG. It seems that, due to MH rissues, OP has a habit of making themselves a total PITA with police up and down the country having been arrested many times and spent time in prison for breaching court orders. There is only one way this is likely to end.
    https://www.helpforheroes.org.uk/give-support/donate-now/
    • Comms69
    • By Comms69 9th May 19, 11:57 AM
    • 8,684 Posts
    • 9,862 Thanks
    Comms69
    Agree totally. I have just Googled, OMG. It seems that, due to MH rissues, OP has a habit of making themselves a total PITA with police up and down the country having been arrested many times and spent time in prison for breaching court orders. There is only one way this is likely to end.
    Originally posted by molerat


    Indeed, and I'm pretty sure that this could be seen as a way to circumnavigate the court order.


    I believe - though I haven't checked - that they are banned from filming Norfolk Constabulary staff. Obviously these are BTP staff in Norfolk; which the courts may view as a deliberate act to circumnavigate the spirit of the order.


    Whilst this couldn't be contempt of court, it could mean a subsequent more onerous order.
    • Manxman in exile
    • By Manxman in exile 9th May 19, 12:50 PM
    • 2,425 Posts
    • 2,072 Thanks
    Manxman in exile
    Quite sad really. I had assumed the OP was a "Freeman".


    EDIT: Unfortunately I think the OP has received some support/encouragement from a poster on Legal Beagles. But another poster there has now mentioned the court order and "Potter's Police Videos".
    Last edited by Manxman in exile; 09-05-2019 at 12:52 PM. Reason: Addition
    • Kiko4564
    • By Kiko4564 9th May 19, 4:22 PM
    • 82 Posts
    • 15 Thanks
    Kiko4564
    Potters Police Videos by any chance.


    I'd suggest that you avoid doing this activity; and abide by the instructions in the letter.
    Originally posted by Comms69
    Yes my YouTube channel is Potter's Police Videos.
    Last edited by Kiko4564; 09-05-2019 at 4:27 PM.
    • Kiko4564
    • By Kiko4564 9th May 19, 4:29 PM
    • 82 Posts
    • 15 Thanks
    Kiko4564
    Indeed, and I'm pretty sure that this could be seen as a way to circumnavigate the court order.


    I believe - though I haven't checked - that they are banned from filming Norfolk Constabulary staff. Obviously these are BTP staff in Norfolk; which the courts may view as a deliberate act to circumnavigate the spirit of the order.


    Whilst this couldn't be contempt of court, it could mean a subsequent more onerous order.
    Originally posted by Comms69
    I'm not planning on filming any BTP officers in Norfolk for various reasons: that reason alone is a good reason not to!
    • a.turner
    • By a.turner 19th May 19, 11:48 AM
    • 343 Posts
    • 141 Thanks
    a.turner
    Did you really enjoy prison that much?
    • MothballsWallet
    • By MothballsWallet 19th May 19, 4:29 PM
    • 13,538 Posts
    • 18,801 Thanks
    MothballsWallet
    Did you really enjoy prison that much?
    Originally posted by a.turner
    I know the perfect prison for the OP if they get sentenced again, it's this one
    Always ask yourself one question: What would Gibbs do?

    I live in the UK City of Culture 2021
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