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  • FIRST POST
    • orangesnaps
    • By orangesnaps 15th Nov 18, 3:40 PM
    • 66Posts
    • 52Thanks
    orangesnaps
    Outfox The Market Direct Debit changes
    • #1
    • 15th Nov 18, 3:40 PM
    Outfox The Market Direct Debit changes 15th Nov 18 at 3:40 PM
    MoneySavingExpert.com Insert December 2018:

    You might like to read our latest news story:

    Outfox the Market customers vent fury over energy bill hikes

    Back to the original post...

    We switched from Eon to OTM on late May of this year. Our monthly debit is £100.21, we are currently £370+ in credit. Our monthly bill is £50-70 & that's with the meter reading (no estimates). I've just got an email that they are hiking our DD to £140.29 without any way to decline it. I don't agree with it. Once the bill for this month comes which will be about the same usage from last month, we will be in credit for £400+. How much more do they want?

    We can't switch without avoiding the exit fee as we are in a fixed tariff with them.
    From our experience with Eon, they gave the customer the option to lower the direct debit to a certain point.
    Last edited by Former MSE Andrea; 17-12-2018 at 1:02 PM.
Page 4
    • BedrockFred
    • By BedrockFred 16th Nov 18, 7:04 AM
    • 32 Posts
    • 12 Thanks
    BedrockFred
    Can you cancel DD
    and let let take payments from my nearly £200 credit balance until that is used up then leave for another supplier?
    DD system was setup to keep payments equal throughout the year for them to double my DD in winter then reduce it in summer but only by £10 from my original DD is rediculous, the rep I spoke to even agreed I would build up a credit even in winter
    • stephenbrowning
    • By stephenbrowning 16th Nov 18, 7:37 AM
    • 2 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    stephenbrowning
    Outfox attempting Double charging
    When you look at the email you will see that the Estimated Annual Cost is simply your current DDR multiplied by 12. It is not an estimate of your likely consumption over the year.

    Applying the new rates, Summer times 6 then Winter times 6, simply adds up to that same Annual figure.

    Outfox then propose to apply the High Winter DDR rate over the coming Winter period but have taken no account of the Credit you have accrued over the Summer (Apr to Sep 2018 inclusive) to pay for part of that Winter Period (Sep 2018 to Mar 2019 inclusive) .



    Therefore

    They are trying to charge you an excess amount for the current 12 month period (April 2018 to March 2019) which comes out roughly equal to the Credit you see on your latest Bill. They will actually be charging you twice for for the amount of Energy which could be bought by that excess payment.



    So, I have simply gone back to Outfox (actually the Trading name of Foxglove Energy) and told them the attempt at excess charging is invalid. And to leave my DDR at the current level until March 2019. They can then drop the DDR to the Summer rate but only if the Regulator (OFGEM) determines that changing the DDR structure within the Contract period is valid.



    Now....
    A DDR is a financial Instrument and we have a Merchant trying to charge twice for the same Goods.


    I would be interested in Martiin's opinion as to whether this behaviour can be referred to the Financial Conduct Authority as well as to Energywatch!!
    • orangesnaps
    • By orangesnaps 16th Nov 18, 7:55 AM
    • 66 Posts
    • 52 Thanks
    orangesnaps
    I have just gone through with a rep on their chat service and she confirmed to me that there are no exit fees for fixed tariff users who switched because of the direct debit changes. Now, I hope it's true & she isn't giving out misinformation.
    I am on a fixed tariff, it's the cheapest rate out of all the others but we will be switching as we don't trust the company anymore.
    I have requested for a refund of the credit that we have so we would probably wait for that before switching.
    • orangesnaps
    • By orangesnaps 16th Nov 18, 8:00 AM
    • 66 Posts
    • 52 Thanks
    orangesnaps
    This is their reply:

    "Our new DD set up is designed to mirror your consumption accurately and as a company who has always operated transparent and fair pricing we equally feel that customers should understand that their DD payments during winter should mirror their own consumption - otherwise who will fund it? The whole idea of this DD is hopefully we should not have to ring you during the winter to demand a payment on your bill because you will already be covered so you will not see that constant need of topping up. The company’s policy is being implemented for all our customers across the board and I hope you can see the benefit of this more dynamic and responsible DD and decide to stay with us as we are still offering you very competitive pricing and great service alongside this."

    I would understand this if my account wasn't in credit but because it's got nearly £400 in credit, I see no reason for them upping the direct debit amount. I'm hoping they process the money back & not give us the run around but I'm not holding my breath.
    • Scatty
    • By Scatty 16th Nov 18, 8:01 AM
    • 133 Posts
    • 44 Thanks
    Scatty
    I've just sent this. Totally peed off. Trouble is, they're still the lowest for me as I'm an incredibly low gas user.

    Dear Sirs

    I strongly object to the increase in my direct debit from £41.95 to £73.41. I moved to you as you had a low DD all year around.

    You also think I'm going to vastly increase my usage. I am a low to medium user.

    Based on your calculations, £73.41 x 6 = £440.46 and £31.46 x 6 = £188.76. Add these together and divide by 12 months = £52.43. Why haven't you just put my DD up to that instead of £41.95, considering I am in credit to the tune of £127!

    I would like my DD to be £52 a month but if you insist on whacking it up by £31.46 a month (totally destroying my carefully set household budget) then I would like my credit refunded to me.

    I look forward to hearing from you.

    Kind regards.
    Woohoohoohooooooooo
  • archived user
    I've just sent this. Totally peed off. Trouble is, they're still the lowest for me as I'm an incredibly low gas user.

    Dear Sirs

    I strongly object to the increase in my direct debit from £41.95 to £73.41. I moved to you as you had a low DD all year around.

    You also think I'm going to vastly increase my usage. I am a low to medium user.

    Based on your calculations, £73.41 x 6 = £440.46 and £31.46 x 6 = £188.76. Add these together and divide by 12 months = £52.43. Why haven't you just put my DD up to that instead of £41.95, considering I am in credit to the tune of £127!

    I would like my DD to be £52 a month but if you insist on whacking it up by £31.46 a month (totally destroying my carefully set household budget) then I would like my credit refunded to me.

    I look forward to hearing from you.

    Kind regards.
    Originally posted by Scatty
    If you do that, then a supplier’s usual response will be to increase your DD even more. What do the terms and conditions say about the account going into debt? Many suppliers will no longer allow this to happen.
    • Scatty
    • By Scatty 16th Nov 18, 8:15 AM
    • 133 Posts
    • 44 Thanks
    Scatty
    If you do that, then a supplier’s usual response will be to increase your DD even more. What do the terms and conditions say about the account going into debt? Many suppliers will no longer allow this to happen.
    Originally posted by Hengus
    They won't reply to my email anyway so I'm not worried about them increasing my DD any more. If they do I shall simply cancel it until the credit is used up. I like their idea of no standing charge but my membership fee has crept up to the same amount so I've got nothing to lose by looking to move as I've had no end of trouble with them..
    Woohoohoohooooooooo
    • orangesnaps
    • By orangesnaps 16th Nov 18, 8:17 AM
    • 66 Posts
    • 52 Thanks
    orangesnaps
    If you do that, then a supplier’s usual response will be to increase your DD even more. What do the terms and conditions say about the account going into debt? Many suppliers will no longer allow this to happen.
    Originally posted by Hengus
    But the point is, people are already in credit and yet they want more money! Madness!
    I would understand if an account is in debit but most of the customers' accounts are in credit but a hundred pounds and more. My account is nearly £400 in credit and yet they still feel the need to increase the direct debit amount? How much more do they want?
    I thought Ofgem discourages companies having customer's in debt or in too much credit.
  • archived user
    But the point is, people are already in credit and yet they want more money! Madness!
    I would understand if an account is in debit but most of the customers' accounts are in credit but a hundred pounds and more. My account is nearly £400 in credit and yet they still feel the need to increase the direct debit amount? How much more do they want?
    I thought Ofgem discourages companies having customer's in debt or in too much credit.
    Originally posted by orangesnaps
    I agree that there is no logic to OFTM’s approach to customers that are in credit. In makes sense for recent moves as they will have little credit to draw on.

    I would suggest that you email consumeraffairs@ofgem.gov.uk with your concerns about what is going on. In my experience, Ofgem’s response is usually directly linked to the weight of correspondence that they receive.
    • cloudscape
    • By cloudscape 16th Nov 18, 8:33 AM
    • 3 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    cloudscape
    Economy 7 Energy - direct debit
    We switched to Economy 7 Energy on 9 October - at which point our estimated energy usage for the year was £1,400 - a dd of £118 per month. A couple of days ago I received an email from E7E saying they were changing their practice to implement 2 different dds over the year - a higher one for winter and a lower one for summer. I really don't want to pay this way - my budget is pretty tight and I need to know what I'm paying each month throughout the year, not be changing half way through. I received a response from E&E to say that I might not like it at first but I'd get used to it and come to appreciate it!
    I've now received an email giving me 10 days notice that they are increasing my estimated usage to £1700 per annum (what's happened since 9 October to justify that?) and changing my dds to £206 pcm in the winter and £88 in the summer. There is no option to continue paying at the same rate throughout the year and no option to pay on bills instead of by dd. So - an extra £88 to find next month , just before Christmas. Despite having just moved to E7E I will be leaving them just as soon as I can.
    Energy Saving Expert - is there anything you can do about this increasingly prevalent change to variable dd over the year? As can be seen from this thread many of us rely on certainty of the same level payments throughout the year to manage our budgets.
    • innkeeperlee
    • By innkeeperlee 16th Nov 18, 8:42 AM
    • 1 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    innkeeperlee
    Is Outfoxthemarket in financial difficulties?

    They are looking to increase direct debits by nearly 50% so that there are on “bill shocks” quote, This is a load of bull as they have already worked out what the direct debit should be to cover the energy costs.
    The only logical conclusion for this action is that the company is short of cash.
    You comments would be appreciated.
  • archived user
    Is Outfoxthemarket in financial difficulties?

    They are looking to increase direct debits by nearly 50% so that there are on “bill shocks” quote, This is a load of bull as they have already worked out what the direct debit should be to cover the energy costs.
    The only logical conclusion for this action is that the company is short of cash.
    You comments would be appreciated.
    Originally posted by innkeeperlee
    Possibly, possibly not. There is no need to panic as your energy supply will not be cut off, and all credit is now 100% protected. If you are on a good deal, and can afford the hike in payments on account, then I would stick with it. At the end of the day, you will only pay for what you use at the agreed tariff rate.
    • jeantaylor
    • By jeantaylor 16th Nov 18, 8:52 AM
    • 1 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    jeantaylor
    Direct Debit changes
    Just been informed my DD will be increased from £70.72 to £99.01 for the winter months then reduced to £42.43 for summer months I am £254.93 in credit. Contacted OFTM and explained that I would prefer to continue with equal payments for the 12 months as on fixed income, they tried to tell that the new system would help me. I am confused why they think they are better at budgeting my income than myself.
    Last edited by jeantaylor; 16-11-2018 at 9:29 AM. Reason: typed wrong price
    • Scatty
    • By Scatty 16th Nov 18, 9:42 AM
    • 133 Posts
    • 44 Thanks
    Scatty
    I have just instigated a move to another supplier, this was the final straw for me. I'd happily pay my credit balance on OTM to my new supplier, providing it all goes through smoothly. Utter shambles.
    Woohoohoohooooooooo
    • orangesnaps
    • By orangesnaps 16th Nov 18, 9:44 AM
    • 66 Posts
    • 52 Thanks
    orangesnaps
    Possibly, possibly not. There is no need to panic as your energy supply will not be cut off, and all credit is now 100% protected. If you are on a good deal, and can afford the hike in payments on account, then I would stick with it. At the end of the day, you will only pay for what you use at the agreed tariff rate.
    Originally posted by Hengus
    I have contacted them via chat, I am on a fixed tariff with exit fees of a £100, the rep said that there will be no exit fees charged should I switch to a different provider.
    My partner & I have agreed to stay until they process to refund us some of the credit that we built up. Hoping we should get more or less £300 but doubt it & then switch late Dec./January. My bills are all accurate as I take meter readings on the last day of the billing cycle and send that to them on that day itself as earlier or later than that they estimate the bill.
    We simply cannot afford the additional £40+ month that they are imposing no matter how cheap the rates are. Which is saying something.
    • ncjharris
    • By ncjharris 16th Nov 18, 9:47 AM
    • 20 Posts
    • 8 Thanks
    ncjharris
    I've got the same; £60/m atm - proposed up to £120/month until March then down to £50 during the summer.

    I understand why they are doing it, but increases this much in the run up to christmas when peoples budgets are already tight?! Come on.

    Effectively, they are passing on the debt servicing to us. Whereas previously with level payments we may have run up a debt with the energy company during periods of high usage; now we hold the debt.

    I've asked if there is any mechanism to opt out of this. If not, I will be leaving. Shame, as their principle for energy billing was a good one.
    • ncjharris
    • By ncjharris 16th Nov 18, 9:48 AM
    • 20 Posts
    • 8 Thanks
    ncjharris
    I have contacted them via chat, I am on a fixed tariff with exit fees of a £100, the rep said that there will be no exit fees charged should I switch to a different provider.
    My partner & I have agreed to stay until they process to refund us some of the credit that we built up. Hoping we should get more or less £300 but doubt it & then switch late Dec./January. My bills are all accurate as I take meter readings on the last day of the billing cycle and send that to them on that day itself as earlier or later than that they estimate the bill.
    We simply cannot afford the additional £40+ month that they are imposing no matter how cheap the rates are. Which is saying something.
    Originally posted by orangesnaps
    Did chat work for you - its disabled when I try to use it.

    The irony that they say "please try to use chat to keep costs down" was not lost on me.
    • orangesnaps
    • By orangesnaps 16th Nov 18, 10:01 AM
    • 66 Posts
    • 52 Thanks
    orangesnaps
    Possibly, possibly not. There is no need to panic as your energy supply will not be cut off, and all credit is now 100% protected. If you are on a good deal, and can afford the hike in payments on account, then I would stick with it. At the end of the day, you will only pay for what you use at the agreed tariff rate.
    Originally posted by Hengus
    I've got the same; £60/m atm - proposed up to £120/month until March then down to £50 during the summer.

    I understand why they are doing it, but increases this much in the run up to christmas when peoples budgets are already tight?! Come on.

    Effectively, they are passing on the debt servicing to us. Whereas previously with level payments we may have run up a debt with the energy company during periods of high usage; now we hold the debt.

    I've asked if there is any mechanism to opt out of this. If not, I will be leaving. Shame, as their principle for energy billing was a good one.
    Originally posted by ncjharris
    There is no way to opt out of it. I have requested a refund of some of the credit that we have built up with them & once that's processed, switch to a different provider.
    I am worried about having too much credit with them especially with the money grab that they are doing to their customers. Something is not right with them & I don't want that kind of amount tied up to them as I don't trust them anymore.

    The chat worked for me but that was at 8:30am today. I also sent them an email stating my complaint about the direct debit changes.
    • ncjharris
    • By ncjharris 16th Nov 18, 10:09 AM
    • 20 Posts
    • 8 Thanks
    ncjharris
    There is no way to opt out of it. I have requested a refund of some of the credit that we have built up with them & once that's processed, switch to a different provider.
    I am worried about having too much credit with them especially with the money grab that they are doing to their customers. Something is not right with them & I don't want that kind of amount tied up to them as I don't trust them anymore.

    The chat worked for me but that was at 8:30am today. I also sent them an email stating my complaint about the direct debit changes.
    Originally posted by orangesnaps
    Thank you. Chat is working now. The person I am speaking to is going to get the credit control team to review the proposed amount and let me know what changes they can make to the proposed DD. I will see if this is fruitful before making a decision, because - annoyingly - they are still the cheapest!
    • orangesnaps
    • By orangesnaps 16th Nov 18, 10:11 AM
    • 66 Posts
    • 52 Thanks
    orangesnaps
    I have just got this email from them,

    "Following yesterday’s email detailing our revised Direct Debit policy, we have listened to our customers feedback and are introducing additional measures to ensure the changes are fair and accurate for everyone, and to make sure every customer pays for their actual annual energy consumption.

    If you feel that your new Direct Debit amount does not match your expected usage during the winter, please email mr@outfoxthemarket.co.uk with a photo of an up-to-date meter reading and we will conduct a further review.

    If there is an excessive credit on your account and you believe our proposed Direct Debit is inaccurate, please email refunds@outfoxthemarket.co.uk with a photo of an up-to-date meter reading and brief explanation. We will then take the time to review your account and respond as quickly as we can.

    We can appreciate that you may have some concerns and whilst demand is currently very high, we are working hard to respond to all our customers individually.

    Thank you for your continued patience.

    Yours sincerely"
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