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  • FIRST POST
    • glosandy
    • By glosandy 5th Jul 18, 10:24 PM
    • 63Posts
    • 38Thanks
    glosandy
    Court Claim - has the Defendant blundered?
    • #1
    • 5th Jul 18, 10:24 PM
    Court Claim - has the Defendant blundered? 5th Jul 18 at 10:24 PM
    Appreciate any advice on this one - I am assisting with a Gladstones/PCM claim (thread "Court Claim - PCM (UK)/Gladstones") at Whittle Way, Gloucester. I have been approached by a friend who is in an identical situation.

    They ignored all previous correspondence until they received the court papers. Without advice, they have engaged with Gladstones to try and settle, offering to pay £60 instead of the claimed £240. Gladstones came back and said they'd accept £180 to halt proceedings. After looking at the arguments I've put forward, the friend now wants to go to court and argue!

    So, are their bridges burnt by the fact that they have engaged with Gladstones, or is it possible to say "thanks, but no thanks - now take me to court!"

    Many Thanks

    Glosandy
Page 2
    • glosandy
    • By glosandy 10th Jul 18, 8:53 PM
    • 63 Posts
    • 38 Thanks
    glosandy
    I do appreciate all of your feedback, thanks. Sorry we let the side down!
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 10th Jul 18, 8:54 PM
    • 73,322 Posts
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    Coupon-mad
    Sounds like N244 is a non-starter then, better to take a chance in Court, and with the WS. I take it the WS part will only allow us to expand on this aspect, as opposed to bringing in the status of the space itself?
    Strictly speaking the WS should stick only to the defence...

    BUT!

    this is small claims, PPCs ambush people with detail at WS stage so he can too.

    If he is this disorganised, I worry, will he even tell you when he gets the N180 DQ form (don't let him fill that in himself!) and then later on, the Notice of Allocation with the dates (not just the court date, but also the date by which he has to get a WS and evidence in).

    Everything from now on has to go both to the court and the Claimant. Sounds like you are going to have to take charge of this.
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 10-07-2018 at 8:59 PM.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • glosandy
    • By glosandy 10th Jul 18, 8:57 PM
    • 63 Posts
    • 38 Thanks
    glosandy
    "Sounds like you are going to have to take charge of this"
    Yes, even step-dad's have their uses ;-)
    • Johnersh
    • By Johnersh 10th Jul 18, 10:42 PM
    • 1,314 Posts
    • 2,577 Thanks
    Johnersh
    Appreciate that there was some wording put in the online defence. Can you enlighten us as to what that actually says?

    After all, it's all well and good trying to shore up the position with a witness statement, but not if the defence restricts your ability to present the case in the manner that you might otherwise have chosen to. The classic example being one document admitting the driver and another not doing so...
    "The best advice I ever got was that knowledge is power and to keep reading."
    DISCLAIMER: I post thoughts as & when they occur. I don't advise. You are your own person and decision-maker. I'm unlikely to respond to DMs seeking personal advice. It's ill-advised & you lose the benefit of a group "take" on events.
    • glosandy
    • By glosandy 16th Jul 18, 6:38 PM
    • 63 Posts
    • 38 Thanks
    glosandy
    Update on the Process:
    Gladstones letter received (dated 13/07), notifying intention to proceed
    Special direction requested to deal on papers
    Costs for oral hearing would be disproportionate (!)
    No mediation
    Will listen to any genuine proposals

    Checked MCOL, and showing as DQ filed by Claimant 16/07, with DQ sent to Defendant 16/07

    Next steps:
    We'll post the Defendant's AOS defence below
    Await DQ to arrive, and then follow Bargepole's advice to complete

    Cheers
    Last edited by glosandy; 16-07-2018 at 6:51 PM. Reason: Punctuation errors!
    • glosandy
    • By glosandy 16th Jul 18, 6:44 PM
    • 63 Posts
    • 38 Thanks
    glosandy
    (Unsupervised) AOS Part Defence submission:

    I have a severe stomach condition called Ulcerative Colitis, main side effects of this disease are urgency to use the toilet (diarrhoea) with both blood and mucus. being a member of David Lloyd I was on my way too the gym and was urgent to use the toilet with all my friends in the car. as you can imagine panic had set in as it was a decision to risk driving around the car park (which is usually full due to allowing people who work on the estate to park there) and potentially soiling myself in my car in front of
    all my friends. (please for 1 second imagine how embarrassing as it happened in front of family but they are understanding) or parking where I was pictured.
    My reasoning why I haven't responded is due to my health, as you can imagine I have multiple appointments a week. For blood tests and colonoscopies and sigmoidoscopies and test after test after
    test. much of my personal life and duties have gone on hold. I am not condoning where I parked at all but I know that it would of been a worse case if I hadn't parked there. I have finally accepted the parking charge and will ONLY pay the £60 charge in question which I can pay next day.
    The stress that this is putting my body under is not acceptable as the main trigger for flare ups in my condition is stress and I simply do not want another stint in hospital.

    Soooooo... the Ulcerative Colitis is genuine and is as disruptive as painted above. Plan will be to use the Witness Statement process to reinforce the above, and add in the parking bay markings, signage etc. Then hope for a sympathetic judge!
    • Redx
    • By Redx 16th Jul 18, 6:45 PM
    • 22,585 Posts
    • 28,690 Thanks
    Redx
    edit the above and remove the punctuation errors


    and ifs using an APPLE device , turn off "smart punctuation" to avoid these forum errors in future
    Last edited by Redx; 24-07-2018 at 4:23 PM.
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • glosandy
    • By glosandy 24th Jul 18, 4:12 PM
    • 63 Posts
    • 38 Thanks
    glosandy
    Update:
    Directions Questionnaire received and completed.
    Original returned to CCBC
    Copy sent to Gladstones

    Take it both of these will need to have proof of sending? (As opposed to Recorded Delivery etc)
    Last edited by glosandy; 24-07-2018 at 4:12 PM. Reason: punctuation!
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 24th Jul 18, 4:17 PM
    • 15,201 Posts
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    KeithP
    Send the DQ to the court to the same email address you used for your Defence.
    .
    • glosandy
    • By glosandy 12th Sep 18, 10:49 PM
    • 63 Posts
    • 38 Thanks
    glosandy
    Update:

    Notice of Allocation to the Small Claims Track, received today.
    Court date is set as 13th November.
    District Judge Ellery has considered the statements of case and directions questionnaire filed and allocated the claim to the small claims track.
    ORDERED THAT:
    1. (Claim time & location)
    2. Unless the Claimant does by 4pm 16th October pay the Court fee... then the claim will be struck out... also liable for Defendant costs.
    3. On or before 27th September the CLAIMANT must send to the Court and the Defendant copies of all the documents he intends to rely upon at the final hearing. Bundle... Bring originals etc.
    4. On or before 27th September the DEFENDANT must send to the Court and the Claimant copies of all the documents he intends to rely upon at the final hearing. Bundle... Bring originals etc.
    5. On or before 11th October the CLAIMANT and DEFENDANT must send to the Court and to each other, copies of their own witness statements etc... comply with Notes etc.

    So, it looks like were heading to Court... Reading between the lines, am I to assume Gladsones actually did submit a half decent DQ in time?

    I'll start preparing the WS, the only thing I'm slightly confused about is the difference between points 4 and 5. Understand 5 is the WS, but what is 4?

    As mentioned previously, the Defendant did their own AOS and royally messed it up. I was looking to take advantage of the WS and expand on the points I think are winnable - there was going to be a lot of supporting documents such as medical letter, signage photos, library of photos of cars using this space etc. Is this relevant to point 4?
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 12th Sep 18, 11:09 PM
    • 73,322 Posts
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    Coupon-mad
    So, it looks like were heading to Court... Reading between the lines, am I to assume Gladsones actually did submit a half decent DQ in time?
    No idea why you are reading anything into a perfectly normal, expected stage. You were already heading to Court and this is just standard.
    what is 4?
    The evidence. Your supporting documents such as medical letter, signage photos, library of photos of cars using this space etc.*

    Even though the Judge has given you longer for the WS, we recommend that evidence actually accompanies your WS - all of it to be filed & served before 27th Sept.

    If the Claimant's WS and evidence discloses anything new, you can then send a supplementary WS before 11th October if need be to add anything to reply to any attempt to ambush you.

    Not that it's hard to guess what a PCM Gladstones WS will look like and you should spend a few days searching the forum for those keywords (in bold) and reading some of the drivel from PCM that people have linked in their winning threads already, so you know what arguments it will rely on, and cover them in your WS and evidence!


    *why do you intend to file photos of cars using the space? Is it one of PCM's efforts where they set up drivers with what LOOKS like an unmarked 'layby' for parking, and then Mrs Sunglasses (or a similar version of her!) scuttled out from hiding to photo a car stopped for one minute?

    http://parking-prankster.blogspot.com/2016/12/heath-parade-graham-park-way-scam-site.html

    http://parking-prankster.blogspot.com/2017/05/pcm-lose-heath-parade-claim.html

    http://parking-prankster.blogspot.com/2017/01/pcm-uk-lose-case-on-heath-parade-scam.html



    Well known PCM 'outrageous scam' conduct (as per the Parliamentary debate on 2.2.18:

    https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5787731

    https://parliamentlive.tv/event/index/2f0384f2-eba5-4fff-ab07-cf24b6a22918?in=12:49:41

    Tell your friend the Defendant to read all the links and to watch the video in full to understand the scam is not new, and to give them confidence.

    Parking Prankster Blogs can be used as part of your evidence v PCM as well, you know. Just don't follow any links on his website (except the case law pages of transcripts of similar cases) only read his Blogs and case law and nothing else.
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 12-09-2018 at 11:17 PM.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • glosandy
    • By glosandy 17th Sep 18, 10:36 PM
    • 63 Posts
    • 38 Thanks
    glosandy
    UPDATE:
    Draft witness statement for critique please. Bear in mind the original defence was poor, so I need to steer this in a. certain way, to make sure I can get the winnable points across.

    IN THE xxxxx COUNTY COURT

    CLAIM No. xxxxxx


    Between:

    Parking Control Management (UK) Limited (Claimant)

    - and -

    Mr xxxxxx (Defendant)

    __________________________________________________ __________________________________
    WITNESS STATEMENT
    __________________________________________________ __________________________________

    1. Preliminary

    1.1 I, xxxxx, of xxxxxxx am the Defendant in this case. I am unrepresented, with no experience of Court procedures. If I do not set out documents in the correct way, I trust the Court will excuse my inexperience.

    1.2 Attached to this statement is a paginated bundle of documents marked MH1, MH2 etc., to which I will refer.

    1.3 The facts in this statement come from my personal knowledge. Where they are not within my own knowledge, they are true to the best of my information and belief.

    1.4 The claim refers to a parking incident involving vehicle xxxxxxxx on xxxxxx at the location of Whittle Square, Gloucester.

    1.5 I am not liable to the Claimant for the sum claimed, or any amount at all, and this is my Witness Statement in support of my Defence already submitted.

    2. Sequence of Events

    2.1 On xxxxxxx I parked my vehicle xxxxxxx outside the David Lloyd Health Club in Whittle Square, Gloucester.

    2.2 Shortly before parking, I was experiencing severe stomach cramps as a result of my Ulcerative Colitis condition that I have suffered from since the age of 13. See Exhibit MH1

    2.3 I believed that I was about to experience a violent attack of diarrhoea, so made my way to the front of the David Lloyd Health Club and parked in an available parking bay, close to the entrance.

    2.4 The vehicle was parked off the highway in an area commonly used for parking. The vehicle was in no way contravening any Highway Regulations, and was parked safely without obstructing or obscuring any vehicular traffic. As such, I believe that I parked my vehicle responsibly and legitimately within a designated parking bay.

    2.5 Some weeks after this occurred, I started to receive correspondence from the Claimant and their Representatives demanding monies for the alleged parking infringement of “Parked Within a Restricted Area”, but I believe the facts and images prove that the area in question is not restricted at all.

    2.6 The distinctly threatening and aggressive correspondence continued as the Claimant has pursued an entirely unreasonable and vexatious process designed to deny any reasonable opportunity for explanation or appeal process, which has led to the Court action now. I respectfully suggest that parking companies using the Small Claims track as a form of aggressive, automated monetary demand against motorists is not something the Court should be seen to support.

    3 The Parking Bay

    3.1 On entering Whittle Square, I looked for the first available parking space, as close to the entrance of the David Lloyd Health Club as I could. I identified the area in question as suitable for parking based on the points listed below.

    3.2 The bay in question is clearly not part of the highway, and is distinguished by the use of distinct surface materials. See Exhibit MH2

    3.3 There is no raised kerb to restrict access to this area from the highway. See Exhibit MH3

    3.4 The bay in question appears to be clearly part of the existing “parking zone” at the front of the David Lloyd Health Club, by means of the use of identical surface materials. See Exhibit MH4

    3.5 There are no road markings adjacent to this area to indicate this is not a parking bay. See Exhibit MH5

    3.6 The area in question is in common usage as a parking bay. During my membership of the David Lloyd Health Club, I have always seen vehicles using this area as a legitimate parking bay. Over the past few weeks I have recorded numerous vehicles using this parking bay, to demonstrate it is in common use as a parking bay. See Exhibit MH6

    3.7 On leaving my car, I made cursory check of the immediate surroundings and did not see any signage to indicate the area was not a parking bay. Upon returning to my car, I took time to locate the nearest signage which was some distance away, and based on the wording contained therein, I saw no issues in how I had parked. See Section 4

    4. Inadequate Signage

    4.1 On entering Whittle Square, I did not see any signage from my vehicle clearly indicating the parking restrictions. When I parked my car, I could not see any signs adjacent to this space, or in the vicinity that could possibly be read from my vehicle. I believe that in the case of “Vine vs London Borough of Waltham Forest” the Court of Appeal ruled that a person cannot be presumed bound by terms and conditions on signage that they have not seen. In this case, which was found in favour of the motorist, the signage was deemed insufficient because there was no signage directly adjacent to the Appellant’s parking bay and the only signage that was displayed could not have been seen from within the vehicle when parking, as in the case here. See Exhibit MH7

    4.2 The signage that I did later see was difficult to read. A key factor in the case of “ParkingEye vs Beavis” was that the relevant signs were “large, prominent and legible so that any reasonable user of the car park would be aware of their existence and nature” and that “the charge is prominently displayed in large letters and at frequent intervals within it”. That is not the case here. See Exhibit MH8

    4.3 I did notice that the signage does state that “Vehicles must park fully within the confines of a marked bay”. My normal understanding of a “marked bay” would be the use of white painted lines to indicate the bay, as in the adjacent area. See Exhibit MH9

    In this case, the “bays” appear to be defined using contrast paving, but the use of the same colour and style of paving for the whole of this area, as indicated in Exhibit MH4, did not in any way suggest to me that I had parked in anything other than a parking bay.

    4.4 Upon later investigation, I believe the signage and operating practice of the Claimant in use at Whittle Square fails the Claimant’s own accredited parking operator scheme (The Independent Parking Committee (IPC)), on the basis that the signage on entering the site “should make it clear that the motorist is entering onto private land” and include a very large “P” to alert the motorist to the fact that the signage relates to parking restrictions. There is no “P”, however sized, on the signage in use. See Exhibit MH8

    4.5 The IPC guidelines state that text on signage ‘should be of such a size and in a font that can be easily read by a motorist having regard to the likely position of the motorist in relation to the sign.’ The text on the signage, particularly that which refers to ‘contractual terms’ and a ‘parking charge’ is very small. This, coupled with the fact that the sign is mounted at least 7ft off the ground, makes it very hard to read and impossible to read from a vehicle.

    4.6 The IPC guidelines (14) state ‘You must not use predatory or misleading tactics to lure drivers into incurring parking charges. Such instances will be viewed as a serious instance of non-compliance’. The fact that there is no signage around this area and that it is known that other motorists use this area as a legitimate parking bay (see Exhibit MH6), I would question that the Claimant is deliberately obscuring this fact to generate spurious Parking Charge Notices solely for financial gain.

    5 Declaration

    I invite the Court to dismiss this claim in its entirety, and to award my costs of attendance at the hearing, such as are allowable pursuant to CPR 27.14.

    Statement of Truth
    I believe that the facts stated in this Witness Statement are true.


    Signature

    Date
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 18th Sep 18, 12:01 AM
    • 73,322 Posts
    • 85,421 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    (The Independent Parking Committee (IPC))
    should be:
    International Parking Community
    Looks good to me, and you have evidence listed too.

    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • glosandy
    • By glosandy 18th Sep 18, 4:52 PM
    • 63 Posts
    • 38 Thanks
    glosandy
    International Parking Community
    I take it there's been a name change at some point then? I have signage showing both names...

    And yes, the evidence pack is looking pretty good, thanks.
    • glosandy
    • By glosandy 18th Sep 18, 9:14 PM
    • 63 Posts
    • 38 Thanks
    glosandy
    So, looks like everything's ready to go in terms of the Witness Statement. Just a couple of questions, please:

    When's best to send it in, and how?
    27th is the date for sending the Evidence, 11th Oct for the Witness Statement. I'd prefer to send both in. together, but does that play into Gladstone's hands and invite the opportunity to counter the arguments in their WS?
    I take it now the WS needs to be sent to Gladstones and the local Gloucester Court, not to Northampton any more? Email, post or both?

    I'd like to get a skeleton ready, but when would this be sent in i.e. how close to the hearing date of 13th November? To the Court, GS or both?

    Also, I'm starting to draft a Schedule of Costs (mind's as well be confident of winning!), again when to submit - before or at the hearing?

    Many thanks.
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 18th Sep 18, 9:21 PM
    • 15,201 Posts
    • 17,688 Thanks
    KeithP
    Are you not following the guidance offered in post #2 of the NEWBIES FAQ sticky thread?

    Most, if not all, of your questions are answered there.
    .
    • glosandy
    • By glosandy 18th Sep 18, 10:12 PM
    • 63 Posts
    • 38 Thanks
    glosandy
    Indeed I am Keith, but feeling a bit "punch drunk" when it comes to wading through the posts, sorry. Just don't want to mess anything up on the final straight...
    I think I've found:

    Skeleton submission - email both at least 24 hrs before hearing
    Costs - email both at least 24 hrs before hearing
    Copies of everything on the day.

    I'd still like an opinion on when best to serve the WS, and the implications of that, if anyone has a spare moment?
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 18th Sep 18, 10:17 PM
    • 73,322 Posts
    • 85,421 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    I'd prefer to send both in. together, but does that play into Gladstone's hands and invite the opportunity to counter the arguments in their WS?
    Yes it does, and they've started to regularly send supplementary or late additional WS, doing exactly as you described.

    So in your case, thinking about it a bit more, I would NOT send them together, due to your specific court direction dates.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • glosandy
    • By glosandy 18th Sep 18, 10:31 PM
    • 63 Posts
    • 38 Thanks
    glosandy
    OK, understand. I'll go for sending the docs by email 24 hours before the deadline.
    I take it the first tranche of documents due on the 27th is going to give them a clue as to how we're approaching this anyway? Oh, well - bring it on!
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 18th Sep 18, 10:55 PM
    • 15,201 Posts
    • 17,688 Thanks
    KeithP
    Careful.

    There is a limit on the number of pages a court will print from email.
    Sorry, I don't know off-hand what that limit is.
    Maybe ring the court and ask them.
    Last edited by KeithP; 18-09-2018 at 10:58 PM.
    .
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