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Results: Contest?

Yes

7.69% • 3 votes

No

92.31% • 36 votes

You may not vote on this poll

39 votes in total.

  • FIRST POST
    • Bucko
    • By Bucko 13th May 19, 10:03 AM
    • 5Posts
    • 2Thanks
    Bucko
    Let through automated ticket barriers with expired tickets then charged for new tickets on train?!
    • #1
    • 13th May 19, 10:03 AM
    Let through automated ticket barriers with expired tickets then charged for new tickets on train?! 13th May 19 at 10:03 AM
    Morning all,

    As the title suggests, I was recently able to pass through an automated ticket barrier to board an intercity train with a ticket which had expired 24 hours previously. I did not realise my mistake until my ticket was checked midway through the journey, and I was subsquently required to purchase an additional ticket (to the tune of 100).

    I am considering contesting this on the basis that I would not have boarded the train had I been made aware that the ticket had already expired at the automated ticket barrier. Do you think I have a case?

    Thanks folks!
    Last edited by Bucko; 13-05-2019 at 11:16 AM.
Page 1
    • Spelunthus
    • By Spelunthus 13th May 19, 10:30 AM
    • 130 Posts
    • 123 Thanks
    Spelunthus
    • #2
    • 13th May 19, 10:30 AM
    • #2
    • 13th May 19, 10:30 AM
    Can't believe you have a case. There are many ways, at every station, to bypass an automated barrier - e.g., side gate, guy at barrier badges you in, gate jammed open.... How coud you prove you even put the expired ticket in the gate? I think the "offense" was getting on the train with a duff ticket, not going througgh the barrier.
    • marmite1979
    • By marmite1979 13th May 19, 10:33 AM
    • 36 Posts
    • 13 Thanks
    marmite1979
    • #3
    • 13th May 19, 10:33 AM
    • #3
    • 13th May 19, 10:33 AM
    It's your responsibility to check, the barriers do not know which train you're catching so can let you through.
    I could buy a 1 ticket to let me through and then board a train it's then pot luck if I'm checked.
    I've had the opposite I unknowingly bought a return ticket online that preceded the date I travelled it was the barrier that realised It was wrong, two guards didn't clock the date. Luckily the Gate Line staff let me off by paying only for the remainder of my journey.
    • heatherw_01
    • By heatherw_01 13th May 19, 10:47 AM
    • 5,511 Posts
    • 3,939 Thanks
    heatherw_01
    • #4
    • 13th May 19, 10:47 AM
    • #4
    • 13th May 19, 10:47 AM
    It is your job to check your tickets are valid, not an automated barrier
    • Bucko
    • By Bucko 13th May 19, 11:04 AM
    • 5 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    Bucko
    • #5
    • 13th May 19, 11:04 AM
    • #5
    • 13th May 19, 11:04 AM
    Not disputing the fact that I made a mistake by any means...but what is the point of the automated barriers being there in the first place if they can't tell the difference between expired and in-date tickets?!
    • stragglebod
    • By stragglebod 13th May 19, 11:41 AM
    • 823 Posts
    • 743 Thanks
    stragglebod
    • #6
    • 13th May 19, 11:41 AM
    • #6
    • 13th May 19, 11:41 AM
    So because a barrier never told you you weren't entitled to a free rail journey, you think you should be entitled to a free rail journey?


    Nobody's told me that I can't have a free Macbook, if I PM you my details will you send me one?
    • Bucko
    • By Bucko 13th May 19, 12:11 PM
    • 5 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    Bucko
    • #7
    • 13th May 19, 12:11 PM
    • #7
    • 13th May 19, 12:11 PM
    To be clear, I had purchased an advance ticket for the same price on the service exactly 24 hours beforehand and I did not use or attempt to use the ticket in question on the date for which it was valid.
    Last edited by Bucko; 13-05-2019 at 12:15 PM.
    • charlotte1994
    • By charlotte1994 13th May 19, 12:20 PM
    • 818 Posts
    • 1,676 Thanks
    charlotte1994
    • #8
    • 13th May 19, 12:20 PM
    • #8
    • 13th May 19, 12:20 PM
    The barriers are usually pretty good, though not perfect. I don't think you have a case as they will throw it back to you about how it's your responsibility to check you have the right ticket. 100 is steep though, but you would have paid a similar amount in the station as it was same day travel.
    • Manxman in exile
    • By Manxman in exile 13th May 19, 2:33 PM
    • 2,902 Posts
    • 2,608 Thanks
    Manxman in exile
    • #9
    • 13th May 19, 2:33 PM
    • #9
    • 13th May 19, 2:33 PM
    To be clear, I had purchased an advance ticket for the same price on the service exactly 24 hours beforehand and I did not use or attempt to use the ticket in question on the date for which it was valid.
    Originally posted by Bucko

    If you didn't have a valid ticket for your journey then you'll end up paying a penalty fare or even getting prosecuted. It's a strict liability offence so you basically have no way of getting out of it. Whether the barrier let you through or not is irrelevant.


    I'm confused anyway. If you inadvertently presented the wrong ticket at the barrier, why didn't you present the correct ticket on the train? If you ended up having to buy another ticket on the train that must mean that you didn't have a valid ticket when boarding the train - offence proven. Or are you saying you bought an advance ticket for the wrong day?
    • Bucko
    • By Bucko 13th May 19, 2:45 PM
    • 5 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    Bucko
    Or are you saying you bought an advance ticket for the wrong day?
    Originally posted by Manxman in exile
    Correct, advance ticket erroneously purchased for the day before I actually travelled. Got through the barrier with it and only realised my mistake when my ticket was checked on the train.

    Oh well, won't make that mistake again!
    • Manxman in exile
    • By Manxman in exile 13th May 19, 3:07 PM
    • 2,902 Posts
    • 2,608 Thanks
    Manxman in exile
    Correct, advance ticket erroneously purchased for the day before I actually travelled. Got through the barrier with it and only realised my mistake when my ticket was checked on the train.

    Oh well, won't make that mistake again!
    Originally posted by Bucko

    OK. When travelling by train I always check, double-check and triple-check I've got the right tickets.


    Most people don't appreciate how costly (and serious) not having a valid ticket for their journey is. It's not even enough to have bought (and have proof of purchase) a valid ticket - you have to be able to produce it on demand too. A 50 train ticket is the same as a 50 note - if you lose it, it's gone!
    • zerog
    • By zerog 14th May 19, 10:02 AM
    • 2,432 Posts
    • 855 Thanks
    zerog
    Barriers are "dumb", they can be set to reject all tickets except certain ones, or accept all tickets except certain ones. There is limited information that can be stored on a magnetic stripe.

    The reason for barriers is to force people who would otherwise "pay when challenged" to get a ticket. Determined fare evaders will find ways to evade fares despite barriers. Unless there is a police presence nearby, you can usually force your way through barriers with no consequences (well maybe you should hide your face from the CCTV if you want to use that station repeatedly), but the majority of people will not do that. Whereas a larger proportion of people would happily not buy a ticket if they could just walk on and off and they know guards don't always come around, and if they do they will just sell on the train, despite it being a "buy before boarding" station.

    Due to inconveniences like minimum wage and employer's NI, as well as the immense complexity of the routeing guide, it is not worth it to employ people to program barriers to correctly accept or reject every possible ticket. However, at some point in the medium-term, magnetic strip tickets will be completely replaced by barcode tickets and scanners which are be easier to program correctly for the majority of tickets (though currently they barely work for anything and require manual intervention).
    • soolin
    • By soolin 14th May 19, 11:54 AM
    • 62,714 Posts
    • 45,135 Thanks
    soolin
    I suspect a lot of the time the barriers act on the person in front's ticket or such like, I use an Oyster card and on a couple of occasions have used it to go through the barrier correctly only to be charged for an uncapped journey as the barrier didn't acknowledge the tapping.

    When I get the fare adjusted they usually tell me that I should always check the little message that flashes up when the gate opens- I do that for a few weeks then get caught up in commuting and forget.
    I'm the Board Guide for the Ebay Board , Charities Board , Dosh & Disability , Up Your Income and the Local MoneySaving-England board which means I volunteer to help get your forum questions answered and keep the forum running smoothly. However, do remember, board guides don't read every post. If you spot an illegal or inappropriate post then please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com (it's not part of my role to deal with this). Any views are mine and not the official line of MoneySavingExpert.com
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    • martindow
    • By martindow 18th May 19, 10:37 AM
    • 8,302 Posts
    • 4,859 Thanks
    martindow
    I suspect a lot of the time the barriers act on the person in front's ticket or such like, I use an Oyster card and on a couple of occasions have used it to go through the barrier correctly only to be charged for an uncapped journey as the barrier didn't acknowledge the tapping.

    When I get the fare adjusted they usually tell me that I should always check the little message that flashes up when the gate opens- I do that for a few weeks then get caught up in commuting and forget.
    Originally posted by soolin
    When it's busy the barriers stay open and the next persons card is touching out before the barrier has a chance to close. It is difficult to be sure that you have touched out correctly.

    What I don't understand is what happens with large crowds or in emergencies when staff open gates and ask people to go straight through without worrying about cards or tickets. There must be thousands of incomplete journeys when this happens.

    I was at Finsbury Park one afternoon before a concert when this was going on. I don't know the result as I was using a travel card that day.
    • soolin
    • By soolin 19th May 19, 4:49 PM
    • 62,714 Posts
    • 45,135 Thanks
    soolin
    When it's busy the barriers stay open and the next persons card is touching out before the barrier has a chance to close. It is difficult to be sure that you have touched out correctly.

    What I don't understand is what happens with large crowds or in emergencies when staff open gates and ask people to go straight through without worrying about cards or tickets. There must be thousands of incomplete journeys when this happens.

    I was at Finsbury Park one afternoon before a concert when this was going on. I don't know the result as I was using a travel card that day.
    Originally posted by martindow
    We have had real issues in our train lines resulting in re routing through smaller stations that can't cope. As you say the barriers are often open and staff encourage people to walk through quickly and this does cause issues with Oyster cards being overcharged. Having had to reclaim several times where I've been unable to tap out, I always insist now on waiting to use the machine.
    I'm the Board Guide for the Ebay Board , Charities Board , Dosh & Disability , Up Your Income and the Local MoneySaving-England board which means I volunteer to help get your forum questions answered and keep the forum running smoothly. However, do remember, board guides don't read every post. If you spot an illegal or inappropriate post then please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com (it's not part of my role to deal with this). Any views are mine and not the official line of MoneySavingExpert.com
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    • t0rt0ise
    • By t0rt0ise 18th Jun 19, 4:22 PM
    • 3,283 Posts
    • 2,084 Thanks
    t0rt0ise
    When it's busy the barriers stay open and the next persons card is touching out before the barrier has a chance to close. It is difficult to be sure that you have touched out correctly.

    What I don't understand is what happens with large crowds or in emergencies when staff open gates and ask people to go straight through without worrying about cards or tickets. There must be thousands of incomplete journeys when this happens.

    I was at Finsbury Park one afternoon before a concert when this was going on. I don't know the result as I was using a travel card that day.
    Originally posted by martindow
    In this case auto complete will have been set so that when you tap in for the return journey it will automatically close the first journey. It doesn't work of course, if you make your return journey by bus.
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