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  • FIRST POST
    • jem16
    • By jem16 14th Apr 19, 12:33 PM
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    jem16
    Advice on new combi boiler
    • #1
    • 14th Apr 19, 12:33 PM
    Advice on new combi boiler 14th Apr 19 at 12:33 PM
    I currently have a Vokera Linea 28 boiler which will be 20 years old later this year. I am considering getting a new boiler installed.

    I was under the impression that Worcester-Bosch boilers were always a good recommendation but further reading seems to be suggesting that they're not as good as they were. Is this accurate?

    If so what boilers should I be looking at?

    My other questions was what smart thermostat should I look at. If it was a Worcester Bosch boiler then Wave or Hive?
    Last edited by jem16; 14-04-2019 at 12:36 PM.
Page 2
    • jem16
    • By jem16 17th Apr 19, 9:35 AM
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    jem16
    If I am reading their website correctly the WB extended promotion ended on the 31st March 2019 as I posted above.

    https://www.worcester-bosch.co.uk/about/news/we-are-pleased-to-announce-that-we-have-extended-our-guarantee-promotion
    Originally posted by thorganby
    The written quote I have so far does state a 10 year guarantee but I will check it out anyway.


    I never look at Trust Pilot reviews and it obviously has to be your choice but you can easily choose a far better boiler than a common or garden, second rate Worcester Bosch.
    I'm getting quotes for Viessmann, Atag and Intergas.

    Please read this before making your decision http://www.sortedgas.co.uk/boilers
    Thank you - that's helpful.
    • jem16
    • By jem16 20th Apr 19, 10:49 AM
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    jem16
    Just to return to this. I checked out the 10 year guarantee with Worcester Bosch direct and yes accredited installers can provide a 10 year guarantee at the moment.

    So quotes so far;

    Local installer - Worcester Bosh Greenstar 30i with Wave 2520 or with Hive 2460 - both with 10 year guarantee ( Hive itself only 2 years but Wave full 10 year ). Good communication from him.

    Intergas accredited installer - called out last Monday but still to provide a quote. Not sure I like the idea of the expansion tank either separate or fitted to back of boiler though.

    Worcester Bosch/Viessmann installer - called on Tuesday morning but still waiting on quote. He also said he was considering doing Intergas so asked for quotes for all 3.

    Scottish Gas called on Thursday - instant quote and actually quite surprising in that they were reasonably competitive but probably to do with the 500 discount they're offering just now ( 300 for Homecare customers and 200 for all )

    Their recommendations were Worcester Bosch Greenstar 30i at 2788 with Hive Or Vaillant EcoTec +832 at 3079 with Hive.

    My issues with them is that both only come with a 5 year guarantee and routing the flue round the wall to come out front of garage as opposed to present flue through garage roof. If I want it through roof it would cost an extra 540 due to needing scaffolding even though the garage roof is not high!

    The sales advisor was quite good in trying to keep the cost down at least.

    Boilerhut Online - quote for Viessmann Vitodens 050-W 29kW with Nest - 2696 with 10 year guarantee

    Also phoned another installer who is both Worcester Bosch and Viessmann accredited. He said to also consider Atag. He has my details since last Tuesday but hasn't contacted me yet to come out.

    Next Thursday I have an Atag installer coming out. Good communication from him so far. Says he has fitted around 60 Atag boilers so far.


    As usual different installers favour different boilers and after sales service sometimes an issue with Viessmann.
    • Edithgrand
    • By Edithgrand 20th Apr 19, 3:21 PM
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    Edithgrand
    That sounds a great deal from your local installer,for the Bosh 30i
    • jem16
    • By jem16 20th Apr 19, 5:29 PM
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    jem16
    That sounds a great deal from your local installer,for the Bosh 30i
    Originally posted by Edithgrand
    Yes it is and out of all the people I've had out so far, he's been the best for communication too. Came out fairly quickly, sent quote when he said he would and has since answered further queries promptly.

    So far I haven't had the same level of service from others although Boilerhut have been good but all online and via phone so far. I don't know who actually installs though although he has given me a name.

    If it was not for people putting me off Worcester Bosch, I would go with the local installer.

    We'll see what the Atag installer says on Thursday.
    • thorganby
    • By thorganby 24th Apr 19, 9:13 AM
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    thorganby
    Yes it is and out of all the people I've had out so far, he's been the best for communication too. Came out fairly quickly, sent quote when he said he would and has since answered further queries promptly.

    So far I haven't had the same level of service from others although Boilerhut have been good but all online and via phone so far. I don't know who actually installs though although he has given me a name.

    If it was not for people putting me off Worcester Bosch, I would go with the local installer.

    We'll see what the Atag installer says on Thursday.
    Originally posted by jem16
    People are putting you off WB for good reason, they are not as good as the alternative boilers mentioned, which have stainless steel heat exchangers.
    • jem16
    • By jem16 24th Apr 19, 5:55 PM
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    jem16
    People are putting you off WB for good reason, they are not as good as the alternative boilers mentioned, which have stainless steel heat exchangers.
    Originally posted by thorganby
    Yes I do realise that and I appreciate the info which has led me onto my own research.

    However what I was saying is that it can be very difficult to get unbiased info from installers as what I've found so far is that they have their own preferences.

    Anyway today I had someone call who is an accredited installer for both Viessmann and Atag. He also has Worcester Bosch in his own home. He has confirmed what you have said about plastic parts in WB boilers and would not recommend them now. he has said that both Viessmann and Atag are good but his preference would be Atag with its 10 year as standard guarantee. He also likes how the Atag has been built.

    He's going to give me a quote for both Viessmann and Atag though.

    Tomorrow I have another Atag installer coming so we'll see what he says.

    Further research has found me info on OpenTherm which some boilers do along with Nest that uses this function.
    • jem16
    • By jem16 1st May 19, 10:56 AM
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    jem16
    Ok a few more quotes now in.

    Atag IC 28 + Nest/Atag One = 2500

    Atag IC 27 Economiser + Nest/Atag One = 2670

    Atag IC 35 Economiser + Nest/Atag One = 2845 and 2650 ( cheaper but hasn't yet installed one whereas other quote comes from someone who has installed around 30 so far)

    Viessmann 100w 30kw + Nest = 2730

    I'm leaning towards the Atag at the moment although haven't decided which one yet. The extra 175 for the 35 over the 27 doesn't seem too bad and gives a higher flow rate of hot water.

    Any thoughts?
    • Gixxer6
    • By Gixxer6 17th May 19, 5:54 PM
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    Gixxer6
    I am a heating engineer that has experience with the boilers you are looking at. I can give you my opinion of you are still looking for advice?
    • jem16
    • By jem16 17th May 19, 6:38 PM
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    jem16
    I am a heating engineer that has experience with the boilers you are looking at. I can give you my opinion of you are still looking for advice?
    Originally posted by Gixxer6
    Yes please do.
    • Gixxer6
    • By Gixxer6 18th May 19, 1:29 PM
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    Gixxer6
    I have the most experience with Worcester and Atag as I have installed around 100 of each. Starting with the 30i. The i is Worcester's bottom of the range boiler, albeit there second latest model (they have just released their new model called the greenstar 8000) but it uses a relatively old design main heat exchanger know as the 'kebab' in the trade, that I have seen quite a few problems with. It also uses a lot of plastic for the water ways which has caused problems with leaks on their others models. To get maximum warranty you have to buy their filter and controls which give an extra year each and have it fitted by an accredited installer for another year. If you were to go with a Worcester the wave isn't their latest thermostat, it is now the easycontrol.
    Atag have two combi's, the IC and the IC economiser. The latter is the same boiler but comes with flue gas heat recovery built in for higher efficiency and hot water flow rates. Both come in three power inputs. Atag's heat exchanger is stainless steel and comes with a lifetime warranty and the boiler comes with a 10 year warranty no matter what filter and controls you opt for. Atag only use brass on their water ways. Their one control is very good and gives added efficiency by having weather compensation, load compensation and optimum start.
    • jem16
    • By jem16 19th May 19, 12:15 PM
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    jem16
    Atag have two combi's, the IC and the IC economiser. The latter is the same boiler but comes with flue gas heat recovery built in for higher efficiency and hot water flow rates. Both come in three power inputs. Atag's heat exchanger is stainless steel and comes with a lifetime warranty and the boiler comes with a 10 year warranty no matter what filter and controls you opt for. Atag only use brass on their water ways.
    Originally posted by Gixxer6
    Thanks to earlier posters, I started looking at Atag as a choice. Having researched their boilers and read what others have saying I have decided on the Atag Economiser 35 Plus. From what you're saying it confirms my choice so thank you.

    Their one control is very good and gives added efficiency by having weather compensation, load compensation and optimum start.
    The controller itself looks good although the app itself appears a little clunky but I'm sure I will manage.

    I like the use of OpenTherm and Nest would allow that too. Not sure on the weather compensation part as I haven't looked that far. Atag does seem to use an actual sensor for the weather which must be more accurate than using an internet weather station though.

    I think I'm more or less decided on the Atag One. Have you any more tips on it?
    • Gixxer6
    • By Gixxer6 19th May 19, 6:37 PM
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    Gixxer6
    I find the one app quite simple to use and haven't had any complaints from any customer's as yet.
    All of atag's boiler come with an external weather sensor but the one uses
    an internet forecast for weather compensation. Siting of the sensor can be an issue as it must be on a north facing wall, located under the eaves and is wired directly to the boiler. Also bare in mind that the one must be wired to the boiler also. The nest does not need to be wired directly to the boiler but it does need a power supply.
    As you have said, the nest uses an opentherm connection which is good but not as advanced as eBus which the one uses.
    Which power boiler you go for should be decided on based on your hot water usage, the flow rate of the cold main at your house and the gas supply to the location of the boiler.
    • jem16
    • By jem16 21st May 19, 9:23 AM
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    jem16
    I find the one app quite simple to use and haven't had any complaints from any customer's as yet.
    Originally posted by Gixxer6
    I believe that the Atag One allows remote diagnostics by the installer. Do you use that with your customers?

    Which power boiler you go for should be decided on based on your hot water usage, the flow rate of the cold main at your house and the gas supply to the location of the boiler.
    I could get away with the Economiser 27 Plus with my usage but I've decided to go with the Economiser 35 Plus as it was only an extra 175 which I felt was worth it.
    • onlyfoolsandparking
    • By onlyfoolsandparking 21st May 19, 11:54 AM
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    onlyfoolsandparking
    All sound very good (especially the Atag) but all incredibly expensive, I have just had fitted an Ideal logic+ C30 1700 all in 7 year guarantee, been fitted now around 6 weeks and my installer reckons they are one of the best for efficiency and the best for value, its quiet and very efficient compared to my old Vaillant which to be fair lasted 25+ years with limited servicing/repair.
    The real meaning of life is the pursuit of happiness and avoidance of pain
    • jem16
    • By jem16 21st May 19, 12:54 PM
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    • 11,484 Thanks
    jem16
    All of atag's boiler come with an external weather sensor but the one uses an internet forecast for weather compensation. Siting of the sensor can be an issue as it must be on a north facing wall, located under the eaves and is wired directly to the boiler.
    Originally posted by Gixxer6
    Is the sensor needed then if the One is using an internet forecast? In fact is there a need for weather compensation in the first place?
    • Cardew
    • By Cardew 21st May 19, 1:47 PM
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    Cardew
    Is the sensor needed then if the One is using an internet forecast? In fact is there a need for weather compensation in the first place?
    Originally posted by jem16

    Weather compensation monitors the outside temperature 24/7 and adjusts the water temperature 24/7 so the boiler runs at as low a temperature as possible.
    • jem16
    • By jem16 21st May 19, 2:06 PM
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    jem16
    Weather compensation monitors the outside temperature 24/7 and adjusts the water temperature 24/7 so the boiler runs at as low a temperature as possible.
    Originally posted by Cardew
    Thanks. Have you used this system? Does it work well?

    I've now found out that the weather compensation can either use the internet for weather reports or use the sensor if fitted.

    Question now is - which method is better?
    • Cardew
    • By Cardew 21st May 19, 3:00 PM
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    Cardew
    Yes I have the system fitted to the main boiler(Veissmann) in my house. it certainly works and the water temperature to the radiators can be as low as 40C or as high as 70C - the boiler is in a separate boiler room so I am not always monitoring the display.


    Of course I have no idea if it saves as much as Veissman claim.
    • jem16
    • By jem16 21st May 19, 3:14 PM
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    • 11,484 Thanks
    jem16
    Yes I have the system fitted to the main boiler(Veissmann) in my house. it certainly works and the water temperature to the radiators can be as low as 40C or as high as 70C - the boiler is in a separate boiler room so I am not always monitoring the display.
    Originally posted by Cardew
    Reading comments elsewhere of people leaving the heating on 24/7. Is this necessary to use the system properly?
    • Cardew
    • By Cardew 21st May 19, 7:17 PM
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    Cardew
    Reading comments elsewhere of people leaving the heating on 24/7. Is this necessary to use the system properly?
    Originally posted by jem16

    No not necessary.


    The principle aim with any condensing boiler(now mandatory) is to keep the boiler in condensing mode to increase efficiency. Essentially this is achieved by running the radiator water temperature as cool as possible. Thus if the radiator water at, say, 40C is sufficient to maintain the required room temperature, it will keep the boiler output at 40C. If it gets colder outside such that the 40C is too cool to maintain the required room temperature, the water temperature is increased.











    This explains the principle in layman's terms


    http://hydroheatplumbing.com/blog/post/what-is-weather-compensation-
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