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  • FIRST POST
    • rizla01
    • By rizla01 9th Dec 17, 6:46 PM
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    rizla01
    Will they go to court or not?
    • #1
    • 9th Dec 17, 6:46 PM
    Will they go to court or not? 9th Dec 17 at 6:46 PM
    Bit of a sticky one here. Sorry its so long and drawn out.


    Daughter left parking area over alloted 2hr time because she drove her car to the takeaway (located within the parking area) and had to wait to be served. She didn't realise that counted. (Me neither tbh)

    So far, on my instruction she has not responded to any letters from PE except the one from small claims court which also asked for reasons that she contests the charge. (initially 60 if paid within...etc then went up to 120 and then threats of Court Costs Etc to be added could increase this to 250 ish) and after the letter was returned to the court she had a FINAL letter from PE offering her the opportunity of just paying 60 again 'Based on further information that we have received' and that was followed by the self same letter two weeks later.
    Not stating what the 'Further Information ' is. I.e. What, that the time clock was wrong? Wrong Car? What?

    Two days ago she received a 'Proposed Allocation to the small claims fast track service so I need to deal with this rather urgently.

    I understand that I cannot appear in court on her behalf without her being present which is not going to happen.

    Just wondered - How likely are they to pursue this.

    Any advice very gratefully received.
    Last edited by rizla01; 09-12-2017 at 11:44 PM.
    "Unhappiness is not knowing what we want, and killing ourselves to get it."
    Post Count: 4,111 Thanked 3,111 Times in 1,111 Posts (Actual figures as they once were))
    Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea.

Page 1
    • Quentin
    • By Quentin 9th Dec 17, 6:58 PM
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    Quentin
    • #2
    • 9th Dec 17, 6:58 PM
    • #2
    • 9th Dec 17, 6:58 PM
    If she hasn't admitted already to being the driver then you need to edit your post to remove details of who was driving

    The ppcs monitor this forum and can use your posts against you

    (Your instructions to her to ignore this was bad. Maybe you have some responsibility for her ending up in Court!!)
    Last edited by Quentin; 19-01-2018 at 8:27 PM.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 9th Dec 17, 7:40 PM
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    Coupon-mad
    • #3
    • 9th Dec 17, 7:40 PM
    • #3
    • 9th Dec 17, 7:40 PM
    Daughter left parking area 14 mins over alloted 2hr time because she drove her car to the KFC (located within the parking area) and had to wait to be served. She didn't realise that counted. (Me neither tbh)
    It doesn't count. Quite apart from the BPA CoP on Grace Periods which covers her time to drive in and then leave at the end, moving the car within the site makes it TWO 'periods of parking'. That - plus the grace periods rule - makes it seem likely PE won't proceed to a hearing with this one.

    This wobble from them also makes me think they are keen to discontinue:
    after the letter was returned to the court she had a FINAL letter from PE offering her the opportunity of just paying 60 again 'Based on further information that we have received' and that was followed by the self same letter two weeks later.
    Two days ago she received a 'Proposed Allocation to the small claims fast track service which was dated 29th November, so I need to deal with this rather urgently.
    OK that's easy to do. Follow what bargepole says about DQ stage in the link in the NEWBIES thread about what to do when, and how. If she will not appear on court you could always tick ''yes'' to Mediation and she could do a phone mediation and offer say 30, if PE are prepared to settle at 60. Offer half.

    Or, proceed by ticking NO to Mediation (which is our usual advice, because these cases are winnable at hearings) and see if I am right that they seem to want to cancel this one. If they don't discontinue a week or so before the hearing, you/she could choose to settle and pay it the day before any hearing in 2018, if push comes to shove.

    However, for just 14 minutes over total stay, in a car park that involved the car being moved (two parking events) and considering the BPA CoP on Grace Periods, I honestly think she/you should front this one out and continue to defend.

    I would call their bluff because IMHO they've already handed her a big clue with the letter they sent twice, begging for 60.
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 09-12-2017 at 7:45 PM.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • rizla01
    • By rizla01 9th Dec 17, 10:38 PM
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    rizla01
    • #4
    • 9th Dec 17, 10:38 PM
    • #4
    • 9th Dec 17, 10:38 PM
    Thank you CM. That sound like very sound advice.

    I don't know if it makes a difference but the parking area serves just one store and a takeaway and both the Companies rent the land from the land owner who has instructed PE.
    Perhaps PE are the land owner too.
    Last edited by rizla01; 09-12-2017 at 11:45 PM.
    "Unhappiness is not knowing what we want, and killing ourselves to get it."
    Post Count: 4,111 Thanked 3,111 Times in 1,111 Posts (Actual figures as they once were))
    Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea.

    • Redx
    • By Redx 9th Dec 17, 10:56 PM
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    Redx
    • #5
    • 9th Dec 17, 10:56 PM
    • #5
    • 9th Dec 17, 10:56 PM
    from my knowledge on these matters PE do not "own" any parking land

    they are in the business of parking control on behalf of others , which they either pay for like in the BEAVIS case or they contract with like with asda and others

    you have made far too many assumptions that have got you here, poor legal advice to your relative being one of them , dont make any more assumptions

    you can pay the Land Registry about 3 to find out landowner details

    could be a pension fund , or British Land , or some other speculative body or investor

    KFC and MATALAN tend to rent from an MA so an MA possibly contracted with PE on behalf of the landowner

    this could all have been resolved ages ago with a landowner complaint and a POPLA appeal, so to have let it get this far is abominable and VERY poor advice

    but for now all that can be done is move forward with it in the manner described above, minus assumptions
    Last edited by Redx; 09-12-2017 at 11:06 PM.
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 9th Dec 17, 11:03 PM
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    Coupon-mad
    • #6
    • 9th Dec 17, 11:03 PM
    • #6
    • 9th Dec 17, 11:03 PM
    I concur. ParkingEye don't own any car parks that I know of, it's just not what they do. They just hoover up money from ordinary people, without having any customers, nor showing any customer service ethic, nor having any ownership of land.

    It really should not be legal, IMHO; regulars here would say this is not a business model that anyone should support.

    But we are stuck with it in this broken Country, where money talks, and the Supreme Court actually thought that (Capita-owned, sloshing with money from drivers) ParkingEye could be supported in issuing enormous charges to people. Never mind the lack of any pre-estimate of loss and lack of any land ownership. Forget all that (common sense and trite law until 2015).

    Since the Beavis case, it's fine (literally) for PE to fine people, according to the highest Judges in England - sigh...

    Firms like this just infest car parks that are owned by other companies and operate a practice akin to a protection racket, basically a parasite occupation, threatening the customers of the true owners. Why on earth so many retailers think this is a good plan of action, letting their customers get sued by such pariahs/ex clampers, is beyond me.
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 09-12-2017 at 11:13 PM.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • rizla01
    • By rizla01 10th Dec 17, 9:34 AM
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    rizla01
    • #7
    • 10th Dec 17, 9:34 AM
    • #7
    • 10th Dec 17, 9:34 AM
    CM.
    One thing that bothers me is this.
    Are some of these 'fines' issued for USE of the parking area rather than for actual parking or is that not usual?
    I haven't been to see for myself but if so, would that negate the Double Parking rule?
    "Unhappiness is not knowing what we want, and killing ourselves to get it."
    Post Count: 4,111 Thanked 3,111 Times in 1,111 Posts (Actual figures as they once were))
    Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea.

    • Quentin
    • By Quentin 10th Dec 17, 10:08 AM
    • 39,246 Posts
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    Quentin
    • #8
    • 10th Dec 17, 10:08 AM
    • #8
    • 10th Dec 17, 10:08 AM
    They are "contractual charges" they say you agreed to by using the car parks covered by the " contract" you enter into by using the car park
    • Redx
    • By Redx 10th Dec 17, 12:30 PM
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    Redx
    • #9
    • 10th Dec 17, 12:30 PM
    • #9
    • 10th Dec 17, 12:30 PM
    Parking Eye do not monitor "parking" , they monitor time on site , totally different

    I could go to my local retail park and as long as I do not stay over 4 hours I can "park" in a dozen places to go in twenty shops , or I could drive round and round for 4 hours and then leave, never parking once

    this is about making money out of unwary victims, not "parking"
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • rizla01
    • By rizla01 10th Dec 17, 12:47 PM
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    rizla01
    Parking Eye do not monitor "parking" , they monitor time on site , totally different

    I could go to my local retail park and as long as I do not stay over 4 hours I can "park" in a dozen places to go in twenty shops , or I could drive round and round for 4 hours and then leave, never parking once

    this is about making money out of unwary victims, not "parking"
    Originally posted by Redx
    So where Coupon Mad says
    It doesn't count. Quite apart from the BPA CoP on Grace Periods which covers her time to drive in and then leave at the end, moving the car within the site makes it TWO 'periods of parking'. That - plus the grace periods rule - makes it seem likely PE won't proceed to a hearing with this one.
    Are you saying that he/she is wrong?
    "Unhappiness is not knowing what we want, and killing ourselves to get it."
    Post Count: 4,111 Thanked 3,111 Times in 1,111 Posts (Actual figures as they once were))
    Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea.

    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 10th Dec 17, 1:08 PM
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    Coupon-mad
    I am a 'she'.

    We are both right!

    ParkingEye have signs talking about 'total stay'. They make the rules up, because they can. No-one stops them.

    But the POFA 2012 talks about parking events and says that a PCN can only be issued to a keeper for a 'single period of parking'. So clearly the intention of Parliament is, that liability for a parking charge relates to a single parking event.

    There are also Grace Periods to factor in, and the BPA CoP sets those out (two periods, one for arriving, finding a space, and observing the signs and deciding whether to stay, and the other at least ten minutes merely to leave).

    All explained here:

    http://www.britishparking.co.uk/News/good-car-parking-practice-includes-grace-periods

    So, if your Daughter's total stay was just 14 minutes (all told) over the 2 hours parking allowed, even if she hadn't moved the car and re-parked, the Grace periods cover her already, and PE no doubt realise this, and are chancing their arm. 5 minutes on arrival plus the mandatory ten after expiry of allowed parking time = 15 minutes non-parking activity, perfectly OK.

    I expect that's why PE want to backtrack/squeeze 60 out of her, because they are on a sticky wicket already.

    Now, on top of that grace periods argument, she can also argue two more things:

    - that the car was moved within the site, so there were two parking events (then she points to the POFA - even if she's blabbed about who was driving, IMHO she can point to the will of Parliament about PCNs relating only to single parking events, and also nothing is there about made-up 'total stays'!)

    - that circumspect, average drivers would perfectly reasonably take the ambiguous terms to mean that they can in fact park for a total of two hours, which she did not exceed. Any reference on the signs to 'total stay' is no doubt contradicted elsewhere by mention of 'parking' (check, it usually is, maybe instore/on the window or on the retailer's website?) and as such the terms are ambiguous as well as disingenuous.

    She didn't contravene 2 hours total parking, and did not accept any contract to pay 100.

    I am sure PE are looking to discontinue this one. It is winnable on Grace Periods alone, but throw in the 'moved car' and you have even more to say at any hearing (and I don't think PE want this to go in front of any Judge).

    I would write emails in your DD's name to PE, telling it like it is an encouraging them to discontinue, and that she declines to pay them a penny for non-parking activity covered by Grace Periods, and clearly they have no cause of action:

    enforcement@parkingeye.co.uk

    Expect to be fobbed off. DO NOT WRITE AS YOU, WRITE AS THE DEFENDANT.

    Keep at them, reply EVERY time as her, telling them they have no cause of action and reiterating the Grace periods and the moved car. Email tennis can win this, no hearing. I reckon they could cancel by the New Year if you/she keep on at them.
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 10-12-2017 at 1:17 PM.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • Castle
    • By Castle 10th Dec 17, 1:28 PM
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    Castle

    Now, on top of that grace periods argument, she can also argue two more things:

    - that the car was moved within the site, so there were two parking events (then she points to the POFA - even if she's blabbed about who was driving, IMHO she can point to the will of Parliament about PCNs relating only to single parking events, and also nothing is there about made-up 'total stays'!)

    - that circumspect, average drivers would perfectly reasonably take the ambiguous terms to mean that they can in fact park for a total of two hours, which she did not exceed. Any reference on the signs to 'total stay' is no doubt contradicted elsewhere by mention of 'parking' (check, it usually is, maybe instore/on the window or on the retailer's website?) and as such the terms are ambiguous as well as disingenuous.
    Originally posted by Coupon-mad
    It's also possible that the parking signs in KFC are different, so the driver had to stop and read them; or even better, it was a "Drive through" which wouldn't be parking, but an associated service.
    (A case involving an "overstay" in a service station:-)
    http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/2016/06/parkingeye-lose-in-court-signage-terms.html
    • rizla01
    • By rizla01 10th Dec 17, 3:02 PM
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    rizla01
    Wow.
    (Somehow I knew you were female CM. I think we have conversed prior)

    That is great advice and i appreciate you taking the time to make her position clear to me.

    Just wondering is 'Its my local court and the town where the car park is situated' the answer that I provide when asking for my local court house?

    I deplore the activities of this (and similar) bunch.
    I escaped (Just ) having to pay a wheel clamping company due the intervention of Curry's once and the following week I parked up on the side road, for the whole of one Saturday warning people parking (And leaving the car park) to move their car or they will be clamped - release fee 80. I reckon I saved around 40plus that penalty despite a black 6'wide/tall heavy using intimidation to try to stop me.
    I got a lot of very genuine 'Thanks' that day and I felt great.
    "Unhappiness is not knowing what we want, and killing ourselves to get it."
    Post Count: 4,111 Thanked 3,111 Times in 1,111 Posts (Actual figures as they once were))
    Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea.

    • Redx
    • By Redx 10th Dec 17, 3:12 PM
    • 22,585 Posts
    • 28,691 Thanks
    Redx
    my explanation, plus the CM and CASTLE explanations give you the methods by which the sc@mmers deviously ply their trade

    you should have been getting up to speed on all of this in the 28 days following the NTK and appealing to PE , POPLA and complaining to the landowner too

    now you have to get on board with all of this and get defending

    the CCBC will allocate your local county court , so if asking for your local court you should be telling them which one it is , or asking for your nearest one

    priort to oct 2012 when wheel clamping was abolished , you escaped car clamping

    these sc@mmers have moved on to credit clamping , using the small claims court in a manner for which it was not intended
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 10th Dec 17, 3:19 PM
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    • 85,428 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    I escaped (Just ) having to pay a wheel clamping company due the intervention of Curry's once and the following week I parked up on the side road, for the whole of one Saturday warning people parking (And leaving the car park) to move their car or they will be clamped - release fee 80.

    I reckon I saved around 40plus that penalty despite a black 6'wide/tall heavy using intimidation to try to stop me.
    Legendary work!
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • rizla01
    • By rizla01 10th Dec 17, 3:57 PM
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    rizla01

    the CCBC will allocate your local county court , so if asking for your local court you should be telling them which one it is , or asking for your nearest one
    Originally posted by Redx
    They also ask for me to state my reason?
    Is 'Because its the closest one to me' sufficient or do I not bother?
    "Unhappiness is not knowing what we want, and killing ourselves to get it."
    Post Count: 4,111 Thanked 3,111 Times in 1,111 Posts (Actual figures as they once were))
    Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea.

    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 10th Dec 17, 3:59 PM
    • 73,322 Posts
    • 85,428 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    You can state a reason, may as well.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
  • archived user
    Why on earth so many retailers think this is a good plan of action, letting their customers get sued by such pariahs/ex clampers, is beyond me.
    Originally posted by Coupon-mad
    Why people like yourself feel you have the right to dump your car on land other people own as you please is beyond me. I bet if I dumped my lorry on your drive way you'd have something to say about it.

    Retailers do it as a result of their goodwill being abused. My local Lidl only started to do it after too many people decided to treat it as free all day parking which actually stopped genuine paying customers from going. If you want someone to be angry at be angry at those who have abused the goodwill of the people who own the land.
    • beamerguy
    • By beamerguy 10th Dec 17, 4:24 PM
    • 11,399 Posts
    • 15,468 Thanks
    beamerguy
    Why people like yourself feel you have the right to dump your car on land other people own as you please is beyond me. I bet if I dumped my lorry on your drive way you'd have something to say about it.

    Retailers do it as a result of their goodwill being abused. My local Lidl only started to do it after too many people decided to treat it as free all day parking which actually stopped genuine paying customers from going. If you want someone to be angry at be angry at those who have abused the goodwill of the people who own the land.
    Originally posted by Tarambor
    Actually we would all agree but as you know, parking companies
    go a step further and scam people.
    If a car park was managed properly, we might just understand
    why companies like Lidl use these people.
    BUT, as Lidl fully understand the scam they employ, the question
    is still ... "why do they do it" ???

    In reality if Lidl went bust tomorrow, nobody would miss them
    due to the immense competition around now, so do Lidl really
    expect loyalty when they are disloyal to customers ???
    Last edited by beamerguy; 10-12-2017 at 4:48 PM.
    RBS - MNBA - CAPITAL ONE - LLOYDS

    DISGUSTING BEHAVIOUR
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 10th Dec 17, 4:38 PM
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    nosferatu1001
    State that it is at your local court as is the defendants right when they are an individual.
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