Court Claim from UKCarParkManagement

Navi48 · 17 November 2018 at 12:49PM

Hello everyone

Thanks so much to all you dedicated people who help others on this forum. Great to see.

Where I’m at now is that I have been issued a court claim.

The story to date in a nutshell is that I was doing some work at a clients property over a number days. They would buzz me in the gate, and usually bring me a permit which I would hang on my mirror.

On one particular occasion, they buzzed me in but told me I would have to come get the permit as they were busy with other matters. In a matter of minutes (prob no more than 5mins) I had retrieved the permit and hung it on my rear view mirror. During that time, they had photographed my car without a permit.

A short while afterwards, I received a penalty charge notice from UK Car Park Management for £100, reduced to £60 if I pay within 14 days.

I appealed and they rejected. I was then going to formally appeal via the IAS from ICS appeal service. However I started reading about how they’ll ignore you anyway, and got a bit confused about whether to admit I was the keeper or driver and the time limit expired.

So after reminder letters, debt collector letters, and shady Solicitor letters, and letter before claim, I now have a court claim for several hundred pounds.

I guess the main question I have is, is there a reasonable amount of time in the eyes of the law to retrieve some sort of ticket? I’m guessing something in the region of 10mins, but from their signage, it says “display at all times”. If I challenge this, have I got a leg to stand on?
I have the actual permit, but it was always hand written, so they could argue it was added afterwards, so again, I don’t think it will stand up.

Parking Cowboys website says IPC specify grace periods before and after and says they won’t be adhering to KADOE contract if they don’t allow it, but I read the T&C of the IPC and it only mentions 10mins after the time has expired, nothing about time to get a ticket/permit.

They sent me date stamped photos of my vehicle and a sign. They are very small, and the one of the sign is of very poor quality i.e. you can’t read it but the date stamps are all within a minute or so of each other. I have requested by email, some original larger photos from the solicitors and UKCPM, but haven’t had anything back yet.

There is another fly in the ointment. The company who operates the car park has changed hands so I neither have photos of the original signage, nor can get any recent ones.

I do have a letter from the client to support my claim, but that is the only solid evidence I have.

Should I just pay up, or is there a case I can make? I’m currently going through the info on this forum for a defence, but thought I better start a thread asap.

Thanks so much

Redx · 17 November 2018 at 2:50PM

post the DATE OF ISSUE of the MCOL form you received, plus post the fulle details of the POC , minus any personal info

do the AOS online in the name of the defendant as named on the document

send UKCPM an SAR asap to their DPO and request all evidence, docs , pictures of signs and landowner contract etc

see the GDPR 2018 fightback thread for help with the SAR

then draft your defence and post the draft in this thread, for critique

read the JOPSON case too

and read the IPC CoP about grace periods , including the time to obtain any permissions or permits, also read what the BPA CoP says as a judge may consider their CoP to be a pointer in your case too (typical waiting times and typical grace periods)

The_Deep · 17 November 2018 at 2:52PM

What a total scam. The Managing Agents should get this invoice cancelled immediately.

You can at least be satisfied that, if this ever got in front of a judge, which, imo is most unlikely, they would have great difficulty in explaining how you breached their contract, how on earth can landlords/tradesmen/residents function if the Managing Agents employs predators such as this. This is blatent disregard for occupants' leasehold rights.

This is an entirely unregulated industry which is scamming the public with inflated claims for minor breaches of alleged contracts for alleged parking offences, aided and abetted by a handful of low-rent solicitors.

Parking Eye, CPM, Smart, and others have already been named and shamed in the House of Commons as have Gladstones Solicitors, and BW Legal, (these two law firms take hundreds of these cases to court each week, hospital car parks and residential complex tickets have been especially mentioned. They lose most of them, and have been reported to the regulatory authority by an M.P. for unprofessional conduct

The problem has become so widespread that MPs have agreed to enact a Bill to regulate these scammers. It has even been suggested that some of these companies have links with organised crime.

Watch the video of the Second Reading and committee stage in the House of Commons recently. MPs have a very low opinion of this industry.

http://parliamentlive.tv/event/index/2f0384f2-eba5-4fff-ab07-cf24b6a22918?in=12:49:41

https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2018-07-19/debates/2b90805c-bff8-4707-8bdc-b0bfae5a7ad5/Parking(CodeOfPractice)Bill(FirstSitting)

and complain in the most robust terms to your MP. With a fair wind they will be out of business by in the not too distant future..

Navi48 · 18 November 2018 at 3:57PM

Thanks guys.

Submitting AOC:
Right so the first thing I'm trying to do is submit an AOC online. This whole thing is such nonsense and driving me bonkas. It keeps saying the password and claim number are incorrect. I've tried umpteen times, it is definitely wrong. So I've got to chase them tomorrow about this, and then rush to get a form in the post just encase.

Date of issue of MCOL:
Maybe I'm over cautious here about identifying my case but suffice it to say I have a few days left to submit the AOC, and therefore more than a couple of weeks to submit the defence.

The POC:
"The driver of the vehicle incurred the parking charges on XX/XX/XX for breaching the terms of parking on the land at XXXXXXXXX. The defendant was driving the vehicle and/or is the Keeper of the vehicle and the claimant claims £XXXX for parking charges / damages and indemnity costs if applicable, together with interest of XXX pursuant to s69 of the County Courts Act 1984 at 8% pa. continuing to Judgment at £XXX per day."

Code of Practice of IPC:
"15.1 Drivers should be allowed a sufficient amount of time to park and read any signs so
they may make an informed decision as to whether or not to remain on the site.
The remainder is about the 10mins for leaving the car park.

Similarly, the BPA says:
" 13.1 If a driver is parking without your permission, or at locations where parking is not normally permitted they must have the chance to read the terms and conditions
before they enter into the ‘parking contract’ with you. If, having had that opportunity, they decide not to park but choose to leave the car park, you must provide them with
a reasonable grace period to leave, as they will not be bound by your parking contract.
13.2 If the parking location is one where parking is normally permitted, you must allow the driver a reasonable grace period in addition to the parking event before enforcement action is taken. In such instances the grace period must be a minimum of 10 minutes.

So it doesn't cover time to retrieve a permit but does allow me time to read the signs before deciding to stay.
I did e-mail the IPC on their contact page about the grace period last Wednesday, but you just get a generic response that basically says "Please note, messages sent via this contact form will only be responded to if they relate directly to Uniti Membership". So no hope of getting an answer from them.

SAR:
Am putting together an SAR to send to UKCPM.

Quick questions

- Should I send it by email or post, and should I also send it to the solicitors?

-How does an SAR help me if I only have a little over 2 weeks to submit my defence, and it can take them up to 30days to respond, and possibly longer if they try to drag it out. What I really want is all the photos they took for my grace period argument. If I just e-mail them and ask them directly without an SAR, maybe that would be quicker

Thanks so much

KeithP · 18 November 2018 at 11:37PM

You are being over cautious.

Please tell us the Issue Date on your Claim Form?

Navi48 · 19 November 2018 at 9:45AM

Fair enough. Issue date of MCOL is 8th Nov. So have until this Thursday 22nd to submit my AOS, and defence by 6th December

Umkomaas · 19 November 2018 at 9:52AM

How does an SAR help me if I only have a little over 2 weeks to submit my defence, and it can take them up to 30days to respond, and possibly longer if they try to drag it out. What I really want is all the photos they took for my grace period argument. If I just e-mail them and ask them directly without an SAR, maybe that would be quicker

You'll need most of the SAR-generated information more for your WS and evidence file than for your defence. Your WS won't be required for about 3 months.

If you send a general (non-SAR) request for information, there is no legal requirement on them to give it to you - and believe me, they won't!

Navi48 · 19 November 2018 at 10:42AM

Just spoke with county court. They said my dates are relative to when they actually posted it, so infact I have until 27th Nov to submit the AOS, and 11th Dec to submit my defence.

I did try to look up what WS means. Even searched the acronym list on Pepipoo but can't figure it out if someone could enlighten me.

So basically what your saying is that I'm not likely to get any photos out of them whether I ask for them directly for them or through an SAR. Is it likely they will have more photos anyway? From the angle it looks like it was done by a human, not CCTV. Can't imagine the guy hung around to wait for more photos to be taken

Le_Kirk · 19 November 2018 at 10:44AM

Navi48 wrote: »

I did try to look up what WS means. Even searched the acronym list on Pepipoo but can't figure it out if someone could enlighten me.

WS = Witness Statement

Umkomaas · 19 November 2018 at 11:00AM

So basically what your saying is that I'm not likely to get any photos out of them whether I ask for them directly for them or through an SAR.

No, I'm not saying that. What I'm saying is that they are legally obliged to provide them to you via a SAR Request, they are not so obliged if you send them a general letter. Bit of a difference.

Is it likely they will have more photos anyway? From the angle it looks like it was done by a human, not CCTV. Can't imagine the guy hung around to wait for more photos to be taken

Who knows? Possibly not, this is more than likely a nosy neighbour armed with his smartphone camera, seeking his £10 bounty. Read about it!

https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/news/new-car-park-app-pays-users-pay-snitch-10-reward-illegal-parking-vehicles-a7560881.html

https://www.uk-carparkmanagement.co.uk/services/parking-enforcement/self-ticketing?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI8cfktJjg3gIVg73tCh3WDA9JEAAYBCAAEgJOjPD_BwE

https://i2-prod.mirror.co.uk/incoming/article9747114.ece/ALTERNATES/s615b/PROD-parking_firm-03.jpg

KeithP · 19 November 2018 at 2:38PM

Navi48 wrote: »

Issue date of MCOL is 8th Nov.

You now have the dates right.

With a Claim Issue Date of 8th November, you have until Tuesday 27th November to do the Acknowledgement of Service, but there is nothing to be gained by delaying it. To do the AoS, follow the guidance offered in a Dropbox link from post #2 of the NEWBIES FAQ sticky thread.

Having done the AoS, you then have until 4pm on Tuesday 11th December 2018 to file your Defence.

That's nearly four weeks. Loads of time to produce a perfect Defence, but don't leave it to the very last minute.

When you are happy with the content, your Defence should be filed via email as suggested here:

Sign it and date it.
Scan the signed document back in and save it as a pdf.
Send that pdf as an email attachment to CCBCAQ@Justice.gov.uk
Just put the claim number and the word Defence in the email title, and in the body of the email something like 'Please find my Defence attached'.
Log into MCOL after a few days to see if the Claim is marked "defended". If not chase the CCBC until it is.
Do not be surprised to receive a copy of the Claimant's Directions Questionnaire, they are just trying to put you under pressure.
Wait for your DQ from the CCBC, or download one from the internet, and then re-read post #2 of the NEWBIES FAQ sticky thread to find out exactly what to do with it.

Court Claim from UKCarParkManagement

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