Your browser isn't supported
It looks like you're using an old web browser. To get the most out of the site and to ensure guides display correctly, we suggest upgrading your browser now. Download the latest:

Welcome to the MSE Forums

We're home to a fantastic community of MoneySavers but anyone can post. Please exercise caution & report spam, illegal, offensive or libellous posts/messages: click "report" or email forumteam@.

Search
  • FIRST POST
    • pinklady21
    • By pinklady21 8th Nov 18, 8:33 PM
    • 820Posts
    • 595Thanks
    pinklady21
    Calling up notice arrived from landlord's lender.
    • #1
    • 8th Nov 18, 8:33 PM
    Calling up notice arrived from landlord's lender. 8th Nov 18 at 8:33 PM
    Hello all
    Well this week's unexpected drama is the arrival of a calling up notice from my landlord's mortgage lender requesting full repayment of his loan within 2 months.

    Scotland - we are tenants on a PRT, now in 5th month. We intend to leave early in 2019 anyway, as this tenancy is temporary until the house we have bought is ready to move into.

    I have always adhered to the terms of my mortgage..... so have not ever seen such a notice. Can anyone more knowledgeable than me please advise:

    1. Am I correct to assume this has been issued as the landlord is behind with the mortgage payments?
    Could there be any other reason?

    2. Should I send the notice (keeping a copy) to the landlord's agent? (landlord lives abroad) Should I ask for an explanation of where this leaves us as his tenants?

    3. The notice was sent by recorded delivery, but we did not sign for it, it was simply posted through the letterbox. Does this affect the validity of it?

    4. As the landlord has 2 months to remedy matters with the mortgage co, (assuming we send the notice to him as point 2 above), what should we do in the meantime?

    5. Should we contact the lender? or their solicitors? (there are no contact details on the letter) What should we say to them?

    6. Should we withhold payment of rent - ie keep it in a separate account, but not pay to landlord for now and offer it to lender at some future point instead? I cannot see any evidence that our deposit has been protected, should I advise him that I wish to use this to pay the next month's rent?

    7. What is the mechanism for the lender to apply to repossess the property? I assume that at the expiry of the 2 months in the calling up notice, the lender then has to apply (I assume to the Sheriff court) for a possession / ejection order?
    How long is this likely to take?

    8. If we were to serve notice on our landlord now, giving more than the required 28 days under the PRT, and taking us to say February 2019, would this still be valid if the lender proceeds with repossession proceedings?

    9. If we served a longer period of notice per point 8, and then decided to leave earlier than we stated on the notice to leave, would be remain liable for payment of rent until the end of the notice period we gave?

    10. The property is a farm, of which we rent the farmhouse under a PRT. Is there any chance this might count as a non residential property?

    Sorry for so many questions! Thank you in advance.
    Last edited by pinklady21; 08-11-2018 at 8:44 PM.
Page 1
    • xylophone
    • By xylophone 8th Nov 18, 8:40 PM
    • 27,345 Posts
    • 16,359 Thanks
    xylophone
    • #2
    • 8th Nov 18, 8:40 PM
    • #2
    • 8th Nov 18, 8:40 PM
    This letter was addressed to your landlord?

    If so, you didn't have the right to open it?
    • pinklady21
    • By pinklady21 8th Nov 18, 8:43 PM
    • 820 Posts
    • 595 Thanks
    pinklady21
    • #3
    • 8th Nov 18, 8:43 PM
    • #3
    • 8th Nov 18, 8:43 PM
    This letter was addressed to your landlord?

    If so, you didn't have the right to open it?
    Originally posted by xylophone
    No - addressed to The Occupier, with a copy of the calling up notice with my landlord's name on it. I can see why the subject line in my o/p appeared ambiguous and have now edited it to make it clearer, I hope.
    • lookstraightahead
    • By lookstraightahead 8th Nov 18, 8:44 PM
    • 571 Posts
    • 526 Thanks
    lookstraightahead
    • #4
    • 8th Nov 18, 8:44 PM
    • #4
    • 8th Nov 18, 8:44 PM
    This letter was addressed to your landlord?

    If so, you didn't have the right to open it?
    Originally posted by xylophone
    I think the prequel was a different thread where it was debated that you actually can open it.

    Feel for you op x
    • silvercar
    • By silvercar 8th Nov 18, 9:08 PM
    • 38,152 Posts
    • 160,433 Thanks
    silvercar
    • #5
    • 8th Nov 18, 9:08 PM
    • #5
    • 8th Nov 18, 9:08 PM
    1. Am I correct to assume this has been issued as the landlord is behind with the mortgage payments?
    Could there be any other reason?
    End of mortgage term.

    Breach of mortgage conditions eg letting a property on a residential mortgage.

    Mortgage arrears.
    • G_M
    • By G_M 8th Nov 18, 10:25 PM
    • 45,946 Posts
    • 55,477 Thanks
    G_M
    • #6
    • 8th Nov 18, 10:25 PM
    • #6
    • 8th Nov 18, 10:25 PM

    1. Am I correct to assume this has been issued as the landlord is behind with the mortgage payments?
    Could there be any other reason? yes

    2. Should I send the notice (keeping a copy) to the landlord's agent? (landlord lives abroad) Should I ask for an explanation of where this leaves us as his tenants? yes and yes (but don't necessarily believe the answer)

    3. The notice was sent by recorded delivery, but we did not sign for it, it was simply posted through the letterbox. Does this affect the validity of it?
    Scotland? I don't know. In England - no.

    4. As the landlord has 2 months to remedy matters with the mortgage co, (assuming we send the notice to him as point 2 above), what should we do in the meantime? shop for christmas if you celebrate it) and plan for your new home.

    5. Should we contact the lender? or their solicitors? (there are no contact details on the letter) What should we say to them? so who is the letter from? No contact details at all? I find that hard to believe.
    Respond briefly making yourself known to them along with your tenancy position.

    6. Should we withhold payment of rent - ie keep it in a separate account, but not pay to landlord for now and offer it to lender at some future point instead? I cannot see any evidence that our deposit has been protected, should I advise him that I wish to use this to pay the next month's rent? No. You have a valid tenancy. Pay the rent you owe to your landlord!
    No, but check with the deposit schemes.


    7. What is the mechanism for the lender to apply to repossess the property? I assume that at the expiry of the 2 months in the calling up notice, the lender then has to apply (I assume to the Sheriff court) for a possession / ejection order?
    How long is this likely to take?
    Scotland so.. no idea and no idea.

    8. If we were to serve notice on our landlord now, giving more than the required 28 days under the PRT, and taking us to say February 2019, would this still be valid if the lender proceeds with repossession proceedings?
    I imagine so. In England yes. In Scotland ....?

    9. If we served a longer period of notice per point 8, and then decided to leave earlier than we stated on the notice to leave, would be remain liable for payment of rent until the end of the notice period we gave?
    I imagine so. In England yes. In Scotland ....?

    10. The property is a farm, of which we rent the farmhouse under a PRT. Is there any chance this might count as a non residential property?
    I imagine not. In England yes. In Scotland ....?
    Sorry for so many questions! Thank you in advance.
    Originally posted by pinklady21
    .................................................. .................................................
    • davidmcn
    • By davidmcn 8th Nov 18, 11:16 PM
    • 9,076 Posts
    • 9,670 Thanks
    davidmcn
    • #7
    • 8th Nov 18, 11:16 PM
    • #7
    • 8th Nov 18, 11:16 PM
    1. Am I correct to assume this has been issued as the landlord is behind with the mortgage payments?
    Could there be any other reason?
    Originally posted by pinklady21
    There could be other reasons but it's almost certainly because of a default in payment.

    2. Should I send the notice (keeping a copy) to the landlord's agent? (landlord lives abroad)
    If you like, but the landlord will almost certainly know they're in default as these notices aren't served instantly they miss a payment.

    Should I ask for an explanation of where this leaves us as his tenants?
    If you like, but they don't need to discuss it with you.

    3. The notice was sent by recorded delivery, but we did not sign for it, it was simply posted through the letterbox. Does this affect the validity of it?
    Not in the slightest. Just needs to be sent by recorded delivery.

    4. As the landlord has 2 months to remedy matters with the mortgage co, (assuming we send the notice to him as point 2 above)
    You don't need to send him a copy, he'll have been sent one to his own address.

    what should we do in the meantime?
    Normal procedures apply, from your point of view. Carry on paying the rent. These things will often be sorted out by the borrower finding the cash to settle the arrears.

    5. Should we contact the lender? or their solicitors? (there are no contact details on the letter)
    Surely the notice has come from the solicitors, and their contact details are on the letter?

    What should we say to them?
    "Hello, we are living in the property and are tenants". Or something along those lines.

    6. Should we withhold payment of rent - ie keep it in a separate account, but not pay to landlord for now and offer it to lender at some future point instead?
    No.
    I cannot see any evidence that our deposit has been protected, should I advise him that I wish to use this to pay the next month's rent?
    No, but you have alternative remedies if he has failed to protect your deposit (have you actually checked?).

    7. What is the mechanism for the lender to apply to repossess the property? I assume that at the expiry of the 2 months in the calling up notice, the lender then has to apply (I assume to the Sheriff court) for a possession / ejection order?
    How long is this likely to take?
    Yes, and months. Sounds like you'll probably be away before that happens.

    8. If we were to serve notice on our landlord now, giving more than the required 28 days under the PRT, and taking us to say February 2019, would this still be valid if the lender proceeds with repossession proceedings?
    Yes

    9. If we served a longer period of notice per point 8, and then decided to leave earlier than we stated on the notice to leave, would be remain liable for payment of rent until the end of the notice period we gave?
    Yes (unless you in the meantime serve a valid alternative period of notice).

    10. The property is a farm, of which we rent the farmhouse under a PRT. Is there any chance this might count as a non residential property?
    The farmhouse on its own? That's a residential property. The fact you have a view of somebody else's cows doesn't change that.
    • marliepanda
    • By marliepanda 9th Nov 18, 7:57 AM
    • 6,894 Posts
    • 14,990 Thanks
    marliepanda
    • #8
    • 9th Nov 18, 7:57 AM
    • #8
    • 9th Nov 18, 7:57 AM
    This letter was addressed to your landlord?

    If so, you didn't have the right to open it?
    Originally posted by xylophone
    You’re not telling me after all the years on the board you still think this is true.

    Post is sent to addresses, not people.

    The OP is not intending to use the info to the landlords detriment.

    She had every right to open it.
    • AnotherJoe
    • By AnotherJoe 9th Nov 18, 9:04 AM
    • 11,517 Posts
    • 13,330 Thanks
    AnotherJoe
    • #9
    • 9th Nov 18, 9:04 AM
    • #9
    • 9th Nov 18, 9:04 AM
    Re the comments about continuing to pay the rent, given the LL is likely in deficit to their mortgage lender, is abroad, and hasn't protected the deposit, I suggest it would be much more pragmatic to ensure that by whatever date the OP leaves, they've recovered their deposit by not paying their rent for whatever period works to accomplish that.
    Because otherwise even though in theory they can recover it, get 3x etc, in practice the LL may not have the money and may be unreachable even if they do.
    Please dont criticise my spelling. It's excellent. Its my typing that's bad.
    • davidmcn
    • By davidmcn 9th Nov 18, 9:04 AM
    • 9,076 Posts
    • 9,670 Thanks
    davidmcn
    You’re not telling me after all the years on the board you still think this is true.

    Post is sent to addresses, not people.

    The OP is not intending to use the info to the landlords detriment.

    She had every right to open it.
    Originally posted by marliepanda
    Besides, as noted above it's addressed to the occupier - the whole point of it is to give notice to whoever is at the property that it's at risk of being repossessed. The landlord gets their own copy sent to them.
    Last edited by davidmcn; 09-11-2018 at 9:13 AM.
    • Comms69
    • By Comms69 9th Nov 18, 9:11 AM
    • 5,506 Posts
    • 5,620 Thanks
    Comms69
    This letter was addressed to your landlord?

    If so, you didn't have the right to open it?
    Originally posted by xylophone


    As long as the OP wasn't intending to act maliciously with the contents - they were perfectly ok to open it
    • davidmcn
    • By davidmcn 9th Nov 18, 9:14 AM
    • 9,076 Posts
    • 9,670 Thanks
    davidmcn
    Re the comments about continuing to pay the rent, given the LL is likely in deficit to their mortgage lender, is abroad, and hasn't protected the deposit, I suggest it would be much more pragmatic to ensure that by whatever date the OP leaves, they've recovered their deposit by not paying their rent for whatever period works to accomplish that.
    Because otherwise even though in theory they can recover it, get 3x etc, in practice the LL may not have the money and may be unreachable even if they do.
    Originally posted by AnotherJoe
    Might be pragmatic, but the tenant isn't entitled to do so. Landlord will have the usual remedies for failure to pay the rent. And of course, withholding the rent isn't going to help the landlord find the money to pay the mortgage.
    • marliepanda
    • By marliepanda 9th Nov 18, 9:18 AM
    • 6,894 Posts
    • 14,990 Thanks
    marliepanda
    Besides, as noted above it's addressed to the occupier - the whole point of it is to give notice to whoever is at the property that it's at risk of being repossessed. The landlord gets their own copy sent to them.
    Originally posted by davidmcn
    Yup, but even if it did say landlord she'd have been fine! It really worries me that people think you cant open mail to your house with your name on. I open everything that comes through my door!

    Just want people to know that ANY post sent to your address can be opened, whether it says your name or Mr Noel Edmonds, as long as you don't intend to do something nasty with the contents.
    Last edited by marliepanda; 09-11-2018 at 9:24 AM.
    • davidmcn
    • By davidmcn 9th Nov 18, 9:22 AM
    • 9,076 Posts
    • 9,670 Thanks
    davidmcn
    True, but that info came after the post I quoted

    Just want people to know that ANY post sent to your address can be opened, whether it says your name or Mr Noel Edmonds, as long as you don't intend to do something nasty with the contents.
    Originally posted by marliepanda
    Not even that - you can intend to do something nasty with the contents if you like, it's only unlawful if and when you actually do.
    • marliepanda
    • By marliepanda 9th Nov 18, 9:24 AM
    • 6,894 Posts
    • 14,990 Thanks
    marliepanda
    Not even that - you can intend to do something nasty with the contents if you like, it's only unlawful if and when you actually do.
    Originally posted by davidmcn
    I editted my post as I thought it read a bit arsey haha. It really worries me that people think you cant open mail to your house with your name on.

    Anything that looks vaguely financial I open, I get a lot of post for the previous occupants daughter and Ive had credit cards/pin number etc. I open, shred and bin.
    • pinklady21
    • By pinklady21 9th Nov 18, 9:48 AM
    • 820 Posts
    • 595 Thanks
    pinklady21
    Thanks all for taking the time to respond - appreciated.
    Re the contact details for the calling up notice:
    the letter has come from a very large firm of solicitors with offices in various parts of the UK. Only the head office address for the solicitors is given, there is no specific department, person or phone number.

    The letter says that if we are tenants, we should contact the lender (a large UK retail bank) but again, no department, person or even address and no phone number.

    So I have been googling trying to work out which department I need to start with, and how I contact them.
    Interestingly, lots of ways to contact them if you want to take out a mortgage, not so easy to find details of what to do if you are in difficulty paying it, or are a tenant of someone who is clearly either not paying it, or is otherwise in breach of the terms!

    Our issue for us is not leaving the rented house, per se, as we are fortunate enough to have somewhere else to go to. It is managing the timing of it, as it depends on various building works being completed sufficiently to allow us to move in to the house we bought.

    We think we will be able to go by February, but don't want to miscalculate this and either leave early and still be liable for rent, or find ourselves unable to move out by the date we originally stated.

    We also have a large amount of stored belongings in the various outbuildings attached to the rented house, and while I doubt the lender will have any right to keep these as they do not belong to the landlord, I just don't want the hassle of having to argue about it.

    Re the deposit, payment of rent etc
    I agree that we should of course keep to the terms of the agreement, and keep paying rent, but with an unprotected deposit, I also agree that even if we were to succeed in getting an order from the First Tier Tribunal for a penalty repayment of up to 3 times the deposit, you can't get blood out of a stone.

    If the landlord is already defaulting on his mortgage, which should be more than covered by what we are paying him in rent, I doubt very much we will be able to do more than whistle for any deposit repayment. So advising him that we are not intending to pay the final months rent in lieu of deposit might be the option we will go for.

    If he has read his own t/a, he should know that he has an obligation to lodge the deposit, and that there is a penalty for failing to do so.
    However.... he has already been in breach of the agreement, and has failed in various other legal landlord obligations too!

    Another thought occurs, we pay rent direct to the landlord, not his agent. As he is abroad, are we supposed to make some deduction to cover the income tax and pay that to HMRC?
    I really don't want to open any more cans of worms, but equally don't wish to get on the wrong side of the tax man either.....
    • AnotherJoe
    • By AnotherJoe 9th Nov 18, 9:57 AM
    • 11,517 Posts
    • 13,330 Thanks
    AnotherJoe
    Thanks all for taking the time to respond - appreciated.
    Re the contact details for the calling up notice:
    the letter has come from a very large firm of solicitors with offices in various parts of the UK. Only the head office address for the solicitors is given, there is no specific department, person or phone number.

    The letter says that if we are tenants, we should contact the lender (a large UK retail bank) but again, no department, person or even address and no phone number.

    So I have been googling trying to work out which department I need to start with, and how I contact them.
    Interestingly, lots of ways to contact them if you want to take out a mortgage, not so easy to find details of what to do if you are in difficulty paying it, or are a tenant of someone who is clearly either not paying it, or is otherwise in breach of the terms!

    Our issue for us is not leaving the rented house, per se, as we are fortunate enough to have somewhere else to go to. It is managing the timing of it, as it depends on various building works being completed sufficiently to allow us to move in to the house we bought.

    We think we will be able to go by February, but don't want to miscalculate this and either leave early and still be liable for rent, or find ourselves unable to move out by the date we originally stated.

    We also have a large amount of stored belongings in the various outbuildings attached to the rented house, and while I doubt the lender will have any right to keep these as they do not belong to the landlord, I just don't want the hassle of having to argue about it.

    Re the deposit, payment of rent etc
    I agree that we should of course keep to the terms of the agreement, and keep paying rent, but with an unprotected deposit, I also agree that even if we were to succeed in getting an order from the First Tier Tribunal for a penalty repayment of up to 3 times the deposit, you can't get blood out of a stone.

    If the landlord is already defaulting on his mortgage, which should be more than covered by what we are paying him in rent, I doubt very much we will be able to do more than whistle for any deposit repayment. So advising him that we are not intending to pay the final months rent in lieu of deposit might be the option we will go for.

    If he has read his own t/a, he should know that he has an obligation to lodge the deposit, and that there is a penalty for failing to do so.
    However.... he has already been in breach of the agreement, and has failed in various other legal landlord obligations too!

    Another thought occurs, we pay rent direct to the landlord, not his agent. As he is abroad, are we supposed to make some deduction to cover the income tax and pay that to HMRC?
    I really don't want to open any more cans of worms, but equally don't wish to get on the wrong side of the tax man either.....
    Originally posted by pinklady21
    Something along those lines for deducting tax, yep. But if you've been paying it so far, I agree re can of worms unless it's you that's liable an d they catch up later? In which case you can perhaps work out how much you owe to HMRC and pay that out if the next few months rent. That might be best as a separate post?

    Edit ; I suggest you get the can opener the responsibility seems to lie with you https://www.gov.uk/guidance/paying-tax-on-rent-to-landlords-abroad

    And yes whatever the theory there's no point feeling all superior about being able to reclaim the deposit if it's in Botswana or what ever.
    Can't say I'd be bothered to be trying to contact the lender because it's unlikely to benefit you at all (by the time the legal cogs have ground to evict you'll be gone) and pound to a penny if you do find the right contact in the lender, they will most likely raise the "data protection" excuse and not discuss anything with you. If it doesn't happen quicker or you stay longer, and they wish to evict you at least at that point you'll get an letter with proper contact details. But hopefully it won't come to that.
    Last edited by AnotherJoe; 09-11-2018 at 10:02 AM.
    Please dont criticise my spelling. It's excellent. Its my typing that's bad.
    • davidmcn
    • By davidmcn 9th Nov 18, 10:03 AM
    • 9,076 Posts
    • 9,670 Thanks
    davidmcn
    the letter has come from a very large firm of solicitors with offices in various parts of the UK. Only the head office address for the solicitors is given, there is no specific department, person or phone number.
    Originally posted by pinklady21
    It'll almost certainly be one of their Scottish offices - isn't there a reference on the letter?
    • AdrianC
    • By AdrianC 9th Nov 18, 10:21 AM
    • 19,101 Posts
    • 17,509 Thanks
    AdrianC
    We think we will be able to go by February
    Originally posted by pinklady21
    That's three months away.

    This letter is giving two months notice of them starting the legal process of seeking possession - which is already early/mid January. That process is not instant. If the lender know that they will not have to jump through the legal hoops, a few weeks stay (at absolute worst) from the likely legal enforcement will be just fine and dandy with them.



    We also have a large amount of stored belongings in the various outbuildings attached to the rented house, and while I doubt the lender will have any right to keep these as they do not belong to the landlord, I just don't want the hassle of having to argue about it.
    There's an inventory from your move-in date, right?


    I agree that we should of course keep to the terms of the agreement, and keep paying rent, but with an unprotected deposit, I also agree that even if we were to succeed in getting an order from the First Tier Tribunal for a penalty repayment of up to 3 times the deposit, you can't get blood out of a stone.
    Also - and I don't know how Scotland differs, so this is England/Wales - s21 notice would be voided by a failure to protect your deposit, but this possession order would be under s8 ground 2, which is mandatory.


    If the landlord is already defaulting on his mortgage, which should be more than covered by what we are paying him in rent, I doubt very much we will be able to do more than whistle for any deposit repayment.
    Defaulting on his BtL mortgage is one thing. Bankruptcy is another.
    However, launching a claim against an overseas landlord is going to be harder than if he was UK resident.


    So advising him that we are not intending to pay the final months rent in lieu of deposit might be the option we will go for.
    Indeed. Practical expediency says that's the obvious way to go.


    Another thought occurs, we pay rent direct to the landlord, not his agent. As he is abroad, are we supposed to make some deduction to cover the income tax and pay that to HMRC?
    Yes.


    I really don't want to open any more cans of worms, but equally don't wish to get on the wrong side of the tax man either.....
    But not as much on the wrong side as he will be.
Welcome to our new Forum!

Our aim is to save you money quickly and easily. We hope you like it!

Forum Team Contact us

Live Stats

90Posts Today

1,313Users online

Martin's Twitter